Im confused what people thought they were gonna get when they asked for gear MM fairness.
They didnt want to fight stuff they dont have…This closes the gap much more than it is now.
heck if you are too broke to equip enough of them…dont equip them at all until you can purchase enough of them. Make your money in the BR you are equipped for. Problem solved.
If thats what they put in their deck, then yes. its in their hands. If you arent ready or dont want to be top tier, dont equip top tier.
And you can still bring variety ( everything < highest BR weapon). You could still bring a Stuart to a Tiger fight if thats what you wanted.
but honestly the smallest portion of players would be interested in doing that. They majority wouldnt bring the stuart if they knew they would be fighting tigers…With the Current System you dont know, it could badly screw you, or it may not. With BR system you are well informed that you will be fighting tigers.
the BR system will make or break the game, depending directly on the leeway to uptier/downtier they add.
if its at max 1 tier difference and you can tick a box with I WANT TO WAIT LONGER QUEUE TO STICK IN MY TIER, it will be ok. if the tier movement is not limited and depends on population on any given time, and you can get uptiered by 2 or 3 tiers, the BR system will not work.
imho, they should add two things to the queue selector>
a hefty sum of xp bonus for JOIN ANY TEAM, to balance sides population. im willing to play the underdog, always had, but with higher difficulty should come higher rewards.
a tick box with I WILL WAIT THE QUEUE AS LONG AS IT TAKES TO FIGHT IN MY BR, so players have a choice, wait longer for more balance or go in guns blazing and keep fingers crossed you dont fight that full STG squad with your brand newly unlocked Ross MkIII.
It closes it so much it doesnt leave room for anything other that the BR’s equpment.
& The problem never was the guy that put one MKb 42(W) in his MP 40 / MP 34(o) squad, it was the spam of full StG 44, FG 42, Tiger, (etc) squads in one sided matches where NO ONE had the means to fight them.
Only the PtW players and the ones that grinded everything have money… Outfitting multiple whole squads with high level gear takes alot of time just grinding money (getting silver orders from fights is SLOW).
So FtP players and anyone that just started grinding the BR bracket above them are gonna be screwed… ok… Also, what about battlepass weapons? Now they are gonna be Useless to get because they just put you in the BR that spams literally better versions of what you got 1 of… and you still have only bolt-action rifles and a 1930s tank… NOT fair… A player that got one MKb 42(W) from the battle pass shop should be placed slightly below the M1 garand / SVT 40 spammers if he has mostly low tier gear (like Pz. II C, MP 28 & Kar98k).THAT is fair.
And get obliterated because everyone else isspamming the highest BR weapon.NO thanks…
Fot variety to exist and be fair to everyone you can’t be like:
1 high tier weapon in a low tier squad = top tier matches with everyone spamming that tiers weapons… You can’t just have your BR determined just by the best weapon/vehicle you have. We need the BR system to work in the squad & preset level, taking ALL the weapons/vehicles into account.
Insentivising mixing your equpment instead of just spamming (you can still do that if you wish) For example, a 40/60 split between AVT-40s and Mosin rifles should be matched against Gewehr 43 spam with the random FG 42 thrown in, but NOT full FG 42 squads. (and others that mix different weapons & vehicles similarly)
You can, but the problem is that now when you are at the tigers BR, you would almost exclusinely be fighting tigers instead of a mix of tigers, Pz 4s & pumas.
Also, everybody is going to have a bazooka because they know they would be fighting tigers, meaning you can’t fight infantry up close anymore…
(and i currently do bring the puma to ambush Jumbo shermans whrn they dont camp spawn…) If you dont get compensated for bringing low tier tanks in mid to high tier matches you are just gonna get screwed trying to use them… (compensation = lower BR of preset if it isn’t obvious)
With the current system you expect to fight a bit of everything. The thing that screws you the most is not having parity between teams. Like when you can face 3 StG 44 & FG 42 spammers in a match when your team at best has that guy that bought the M2A1 Carbine a year ago, or somebody that has the Thompson .30 cal from the current event while their squads have M3 Greaseguns and some M1 Garands… THAT is unfair, but it’s better fixed with guaranteeng parity between teams (not players individually) and incentives to NOT spam top tier gear and instead mix it with lower tier gear. If you want to spam top tier weapons you can duke it out with other top tier spammers like you. If you dont want to (or cant) tho, you shouldnt be placed in lobbies with everyone else having squads superior to yours. You should be placed lower, with around mid tier spammers and others that mix high with low tier gear. With people that have squads that in total are similar (in BR) to yours, but can be 1 better and 1 worse squad that yours.
Having to spawn 1 high tier squad followed by a low tier one against 2 medium tier (weapon spam) squads is balanced and better that just high tier spam… (or 2 overall med. tier squads with a few high tier guns and the rest low tier)
And last:
WAY too strick to be fair…
As i said already, strick gear MM results in BR brackets that spam that BR’s gear. ONLY fair for the SPAMMERS that can afford it and wanna spam…
I was expecting some general squad/preset level ranking system with room for mixing different weapos, not best equpped weapon = that weapons BR even if there is just ONE of them… That just begs for awful mirror match spam meta with a few BR brackets that spam their weapons and no room for deep squad customization. Looks like the days that you can grab a good battlepass weapon (or 1 of the new one you just unlocked), stick it into your existing mid to low tier squad and have fun without constantly getting screwed over by top tier spammers areGONE! sad…
To be fair we dont know what it does yet. they haven’t released anything. but they did originally say there would be no BR spread cap…so you know what that means.
There had been plenty of feedback given saying planned economy is too expensive. I also gave the feedback. As it is now, I ground Moscow Free to play and was never lacking gear or troops
No. If they put “one” in they screw themselves. Just don’t put it in
Warthunder used to have “average” BR…it got removed because you could build your decks in a way to Down tier Stupidly powerful tanks.
bottom line… we have no idea what they are planning for BR yet
Yep, making it too strick will just bu everyone spams the same stuff at each BR bracket, while too lenient and it practically doesnt exist anymore…
Playing the underdog is fun, but only when you are fighiting players at your level and top tier ones, not just top tier spam.(and when you are not screwed by the map as well)
XP bonus for killing players with better gear that yours is needed.
If you only have Ross MkIIIs and springfields you should not fightfull StG 44 squads. If you grab something much better from the battlepass shop, you should start seeing Gewehr 43 squads with some earlier stuff (i hope) instead of FG 42s forever.
you should not, indeed…but you could, if the BR uptier is unlimited and the queue time is a limiting factor. something in the likes of wait up to 1 minute to match BRs, then put the player in any match available, regardless of BR.
i dont see that option so far from the standard modus operandi regarding queue and matchmaking to deem it impossible.
We really need info about the specifics of the BR system BEFORE it gors live.
I also heard somewere that it is gonna be: “best equpped weapon = that weapon’s BR”.
So… you are okay with a mirror match meta and having to equp full squads with the same stuff to be effectine??? Putting ‘one’ shouldnt insta-throw you into the next BR bracket…
Warthunder had that issue because downtiering a heavy tank can make it INVINCIBLE to anything but the person that downtiered a big gun tank destroyer, or good old CAS, & backups exist. In enlisted, however there are many things that can kill high tier tanks and squads that are not other high tier tanks/squads, or good old CAS(love or hate it, CAS should be part of the balance in both games)Basic explosive packs, mines, long range rifle fire, flanking and attacking the rear, running around in your small tank shooting infantry… all valid ways to go against the high level players and force them to respawn with unferior equpment that yours (how else they can bring their BR down???) and then YOU can club them into spawning their best squad again, 2 respawns later. Remember, unlike in War Thunder, top level squads don’t become immune to bolt-action rifle fire and top tier tanks dont become immune to explosive packs & mines. Most of the current problems with high level gear is the prevalence of cqc maps and campers that sit near their spawn with their heavy tank and rely to the map eating ot driving off potevtial flankers with light tanks or explosive packs…
You could also calculate the total BR of a preset not just by the averege BR of all of it’s squads, but you can count twice the 2 best squads and dont count the worst one at all(squads themselves are the average BR of their soldiers or the same system as the presets, comparing individual soldier’s BR’s instead)
You could have a preset BR calculation like this:
(wA + wB + C + D) / (w1 + w1 + 1 + 1)
with A,B,C,D the BR of the 4 squads you have and w is the weight that increases the value of the 2 best squads (>1 to increase their value, increasing the total BR)
(fun fact) in WarThunder, in Air Arcade, you can still downtier 1 aircraft 0.3BR lower that it would be alone.
No, But I’m okay with people taking the consequences (screwing themselves) when they have the choice not to within the set rules, whatever they may be.
In enlisted you would still get the vehicle disparity problems, and also weapon disparity. And you would get up tiered alot into the same spammable fulll weapon decks you yourself said would be unfair even if you had the same weapon, but less of them…except you wont have even one.
BR isnt going to fix this. BR will be one thing - Limiting the spammable use of powerful squads and vehicles will have to be done via other means. (e.g. limiting back to back spawns, introducing spawn cost) - IMO
anyway. the day is approaching where we can stop guessing.
the system presents problems both ways, either A.the highest BR equipment dictates the BR of the queue matchmaking, either B. be it a median of BR of all equipped gear.
to solve the paradox, there is a very easy path. THINK FROM THE NEW PLAYER PERSPECTIVE. old time players always, always, by force of pure nature, sooner or later end up leaving. it MUST be countered by new players entering the arena and filling the spaces left by the veterans leaving.
do the answer to a new player getting a shiny new toy, is NONONO, you bought a new gun, but you better not use it till you have 6 more of the same or you will get severely owned!
the worst offender for BR uptiers is vehicles, tanks in particular. a gun still kills low or high BR enemies, vehicles often not. that can be easily solved by applying different rules to infantry and vehicles. vehicle BR over infantry BR, maybe, with some nuances added here and there?
everyone, even the most rusted veteran, was a new player sometime. are we so lacking empathy as a community to not be able to put ourselves in their place?
it was in one of those big topics and highest equipped weapon/vehicles is BR MM you will be put in. everything else leaves lots of room for abuse.
from bits and pieces over the countless threads in the forum i think that overall there will not be strict BR spread. you will have relative spread depending on the number of players. so if there are only 10 players in your team queue, all 10 will be put in the same match no matter if they have puma or tiger 2 and if there are 100 players they will be divided into 10 matches depending on their BR. if it happens that 95 players have top BR and 5 players have low BR, those 5 players will end up in top BR match.
and if they camp gray zone in campaign like normandy then you have invulnerable tanks to everything besides 76w or CAS. and if f2p players take low level tank, they cant take CAS.
median or average would just see abuse and introduction of heavy p2w elements into the game. player with 10 slots could easily equip 5 slots with lowest BR gear and 5 slots with top BR gear and go into low or mid BR match with only top equipped squads
yes indeed, and i wouldnt be surprised if some people were already predicting a median of BR equipped and fine tuning their squads to juice it out the worst way possible, 9 squads of kar98k and a tiger II, or 1 STG and the rest k98ks with suicide pills to make the rotation faster.
but there can be ways, nuances and exceptions on the ruleset to prevent this. the problem is they are more complex and harder to code, and therefore imply more work, which translates into an immediate refusal.
i just hope we get to test the BR in another dev server, rechecking the account transfer and tweaks they will make to the economy in the meantime.
Or, at the very least, get a full blog explaining in excrutiating detail how it will work, with plenty of time to think, test and do a solid rehearsal of the thing. i rather read 2 pages of BR blog than go in face first against a fait accompli situation.
i dont think you can properly test it before actual deployment. simply not enough players on test server. you would need hundreds if not thousands players on test server to actually test it.
“everything else leaves lots of room for abuse.” unless you put limits to it.
Like Tiger II + 3 Kar98k squads should have a higher overall BR that the averege BR of all 4 squads
So the BR spread is ajustable to the current active playerbase. Hmmm…
With the merger we unify the playerbases of each campaign but we split them again by BRs.
We will see how that plays out. We will have an even spread?
We will have meta BR brackets that might get so bad they forse a mirror meta??
Or we will all congregate in the middie and constantly switch between clubbing seals and getting clubbed (getting downtiers to newbie levels and the next match filling in for the underpopulated top tier assault rifle spam) ???
Heavy tanks camping gray zone are THE WORST for me, a Puma enjoyer. I literally flank to the corner of the map and still don’t have the angle to pen the lower side armor of a Jumbo besause they are so far in (even a normal sherman is a problem here). I have to tell my team to get off the cap in order to lure them to push (if they haven’t being blasted to pieces by said jumbo already). (and it works, even when i kill like 4 stuarts in front of them…). With the Jumbo myself i die to explosive packs most of the time, that thing is too slow to run away… (and i dont like cheesy camping like that)
Then we need a system that limits you into using all of your squads in a battle.
Like, if you have 2 elite and 2 basic squads you should not only be in a higher overall BR that all that weaponry mixed between all squads (best 2-3 squads should cound twice towards preset overall BR),
they should be limited from spawing both elite squads in sequence, and it should be nessesary to use the basic squads at least at the 3rd respawn.
That will also force premium players to use their low BR squads instead of just running their 3-4 best squads in repeat in a BR that is too low for them alone
Yes, there should be limits to how much you should be able to min-max you equpment.
Stuff like this should be ‘out of bounds’, they are truly extreme, but punishing you for sudiciding and even banning you if you abuse it too much can possibly balance this, although it will face semi-auto rifles and hordes of low tier smg’s
This is truly the most agregious of them all! Blasphemy!
Theese extremes need to be dealt with, with stuff like an additional minimum BR for vehicles and spesialist gear, so Tiger II H with 9 Kar98k cannon fodder squads should have the same BR as Tiger II H with an MP 40 and a Gewehr 43 squad.
That’s why a said before:
And you can add to this to take into account 6+ squads,
make vehicles impact the BR more hevily than other units,
dont count at all the worst 1 or 2 squads so cannon fodder cannot be used to lower overall BR too much
Here is one for 8 infantry squads & 2 vehicle squads:
(xT + xZ + wA + wB + C + D + E) / (x + x + w + w + 1 + 1 + 1) + (F + G + H)*0 = BR
with A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H being the BR’s of the infantry squads from best to worst and T,Z are the BR’s of the vehicle squads. Notice that the worst 3 infantry squads BR is multiplied with 0 ? that’s because they dont count towards the preset’s BR and they can’t lower it anymore.
Also, you can see two weight values here, ‘w’ and ‘x’
Theese can increase the importance of the two best infantry squads and the vehicle ones respectinely.
You want the velicles to matter alot in the BR? increase ‘x’ to 5 or something. Now, the vehicles count 5 times towards the BR, increasing it noticeably above the average BR for that 10 squad preset.
Currently you always fight a bit of everything. Every match i see a tiger, a puma, a Jumbo, a Stuart, a FG 42, a bunch of bolt action rifles, etc… With the BR system, depending on how strict it is, it can be lika a switch: fight basic rifles with yours, but buy that juicy gold order weapon you were grinding this event for and now you are fighting alongside hordes of assault rifle spam, while fighting another horde of assault rifle spam.
Unless the system is lenient enough to put enough mid tier & semi-auto rifle spammers in the lobby, but you still have overall worse equpment that everyone around you.
And limiting the use of “powerfull stuff” but still allowing it in low to mid tiers in a limited capacity IS what we are discussing here. Using a spawn point system in order to spawn your best squads (be it infantry, vehicle or flat out the 3 best ones) can really compliment this.
(yes, i care about that gold order in the tunisian paratroopers event a bit much LOL)
My latest revision of the general, variety oriented (without screwing everyone but the top tier spam) BR matchmaking system:
Restrict the use of theese Higher BR that the battle’s average by a point system that’s needed to spawn again your good squads, restricting you into playing your “bad” (or at worst “cannon fodder”) squads to get the points to respawn again the better ones. (outright dont allow them to just cycle their best 3 squads) Score system similar to @VoyoMayPL 's idea.
Punish and even ban people that sudicide in order to cheese the system and cycle back to their best squad (abuse the sudicide button repeatedly?? Banhammer!)
Hard cap the lower BR range of vehicles and specialist gear to a couple BR brackets lower that their BR, so Tiger II H with 9 Kar98k cannon fodder squads should have the same BR as Tiger II H with an MP 40 and a Gewehr 43 squad. (example)
(flamertroopers, mortars, AT guns, tanks of all types, aircraft of all types, paratroopers)
Limit the BR range between squads in a preset. You shouldnt even be allowed to put a full StG 44 & FG 42 squad next to 2 full Kar98k squad’s that don’t even have consistent grenades. Come on, it’s so obvious ya trying to cheese the system to fight mid tier garand players! STOP that! you shouldnt be aven allowed to be in the queue for a match ya sealclubber!!! At least replace those FG 42’s with Gewehr 43’s, get some MP 40’s and give those god damn cannon fodder squads over there something better thant the basic rifle they come with!! Better: Reallocate those guns througout all of your squads, maybe add a couple Gewehr 43’s,some MP 40’s and a Pz 4J and now you can play!!
Some basic skill based matchmaking to combat “skill gap”
We dont need a full on ranked mobe or anything close to this extreme, but you really think that a true newbie (no skill from other fps games) can win against a veteran?? Even if you fully swap their loadouts and the vet that only has 3 big Mosin Nagant squads is now chasing the StG 44 toting newbie the veteran is still able to pull it off, it just not a stomp, the newbie can win if he forces cqc fights and doesn’t stand in the open to be sniped. All that we need is a soft barrier between the newbies and the average grinders, another soft barrier between the average players and the Elite Veterans. Ofcorse, the newbies should NOT face theese veterans regularly, even when the vet’s play full bolt-action loadouts.
Map changes to eliminate the ability to CAMP SPAWN in a tank, making CAS and high tier tanks the only way to deal with them. I could be okay with just not be able fire if you are in an area that the enemy can’t go, i yould really prefer the elimination of theese one sided gray zones. WHY you can go in a secluded & far away camping spot, pummel the point with 75mm+ HE shells and i can’t flank you?? How that makes any sense?? It removes the only ways low level players can reliably kill heavy tanks because the map kills them ehen they try!!
Make vehicles and top squads impact the BR more hevily than other units.
Dont count at all the worst few squads so “cannon fodder” cannot be used to lower overall BR too much and cheese the system
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A Weighted average BR calculation:
Here is one basic formula for 8 infantry squads & 2 vehicle squads:
(xT + xZ + wA + wB + C + D + E) / (x + x + w + w + 1 + 1 + 1) + (F + G + H)*0 = BR
with A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H being the BR’s of the infantry squads from best to worst and T,Z are the BR’s of the vehicle squads. Notice that the worst 3 infantry squads BR is multiplied with 0 ? that’s because they dont count towards the preset’s BR and they can’t lower it anymore.
Also, you can see two weight values here, ‘w’ and ‘x’
Theese can increase the importance of the two best infantry squads and the vehicle ones respectinely.
You want the velicles to matter alot in the BR? increase ‘x’ to 5 or something. Now, the vehicles count 5 times towards the BR, increasing it noticeably above the average BR for that 10 squad preset.
You want the top squads to not be dragged down much?? Increase ‘w’ to 3 or something.
Remember, that each squad’s BR should be determined the same way, with basicaly averaging the BR of like 2/3rds of the soldiers, ignoring the 1/3rd that have the lowest BR and put a ‘weight’ of like 2 on the 2 to 3 best soldiers of the squad. Squad size should also matter, since a stock assaulter squad with an StG 44 and 3 Gewehr 43’s is just worse that a full MP 40 squad with an MG and an engineer.