Overhaul of this game's nerf philosophy

Altering the stats of different items in the game and making them less deadly is the easiest way to deal with things that spun out of control instead of attacking the main core problem: spam. The spam of different mechanics that’s on their own reasonably powerful but not game-breaking. The spamming is what creates the problems and that’s what DF the last years been reacting to by nerfing the mechanic/effect itself instead of limiting the spamability.

Instead of making mechanics really bad and borderline useable, I suggest DF taking a different route in nerfing different mechanics in this game.
My suggestion is to put serious effort into developing a system of what I will in this text call Limitation and Countermeasures to balance mechanics rather than weaken them.

In the future, I hope they spend time making a new system in place to limit (spam) but also find interesting counterplays instead of nerfing things to oblivion (see below).

Short Back Story

What they actually have been doing, for you who don’t know, is basically making mechanics (only strong and powerful when spammed) just simply weaker. For example: White phosphorus (WP), Impact grenades and AP mines got a smaller/shorter AoE - making them basically kinda laughable and pointless. (The only example this AoE nerf was justifiable was regarding explosion packs, making it weak against infantry and thus making normal frags non-redundant). Soldiers almost got fully resistant to flames while the flametrooper only can walk when firing his flamethrower - the list goes longer.

I believe this list covers the most important/impactful nerfs in this game in the last couple of years. Some of them were good. Some of them need tweaks. And some of them were, as described above, very bad.

  • Bombing runs
  • White phosphorus
  • Impact grenades
  • Flamethrowers
  • Paratroopers
  • AP Mines
  • Quad barrel AA guns against infantry
  • Explosion packs

(It’s also pretty sad that almost all new cool features added to this game are part of the list).

I personally supported a general nerf to all of these things. The game environment also became much healthier after the nerfs than before. The last thing I would want is for them to revert the changes.

There’s no question about it. The nerf has had a positive effect. But what I don’t support is the way how they nerfed it. Flamethrowers and AP mines for example should be deadly and terrifying. WP and impacts have their place in this game as tactical grenades. They’re cool and offer situational powerful alternatives. The mechanics were there. But they decided to make them useless to stop ppl spam.

One single white phosphorus grenade was never the problem, it was the spam of them. It just becomes unfun and unplayable if it gets spammed/abused. That’s why we need limitations and countermeasures in place.

Suggestion:

Weapons or items that are too powerful should obviously be nerfed like usual by making them weaker. But the nerf philosophy regarding different features/mechanics should first and foremost focus on two main aspects:

Limitations to prevent mechanics from getting exponentially stronger if spammed
and if possible: Countermeasures to make the mechanics more interesting and dynamic involving both sides.

Example of nerf approaches to different mechanics:

Remember this is not the solution, just an example of how this nerf strategy would work.

A solution to AP mines

Limitation: Soldier class restrictions for AP mines.

  • Restrict so only one or two soldier classes can carry AP mines.

Countermeasure:

  • Implement sappers with special abilities to clear mines etc. Or implement a certain perk (0/3) that highlights landmines within 2/5/10m.

__
you can also implement some kind of animation for prepping the mines.

A solution to grenades/grenade pouches

Limitation: Quantity and soldier class restrictions for grenades and grenade pouches

  • Restrict the number of soldier classes that can have large grenade pouches.
  • Force both the small and large grenade pouch to have one locked slot for smoke grenades.
  • Prevent the ability to pick more than one grenade of each type.
A solution to paratroopers

The current nerf to paras is kinda silly since it mostly affects your AI but not yourself. Landing 30 sec before the rest of your squad seems like one of the more silly ad-hoc solution to paratroopers.
It’s a very irritating effect that makes this class totally unenjoyable.

Limitation

  • Make a 35 m “iron circle” around the objective you can’t jump within OR even better: make every newly opened objective have a small cooldown of 20-30 sec (it’s 1.30 in confrontation).
  • Slightly increase the flight time even more but reset the altitude and time AI spent in air to what it was upon release.

Countermeasure

  • A red indication marker on the transport plane would be convenient

Appendix

Lastly, let’s have a look of the biggest nerfs in the last 2 years. I added video examples for you who forgot or weren’t around before the nerfs. (I know some things got changed/nerfs in different stages).

17 Likes

I agree with you as a most part, however both countermeasures on the same thing might make them unusable.

Well this is a good take -AP mines were never OP on their own, instead the problem was how fast and without effort you can place them.

You drop them while running, which is ridiculous.

You can however still place multiple mines and have the same effect as before - which effectively means you need more time now to have the same effect, which is actually the real fix that was needed, by accident of course.

1 Like

2-3y ago when I and some other ppl said similar thing (that it’s better to limit than nerf and it’s better to nerf via mechanics rather than changing numbers) such opinions were not popular among players. “I want my freedom to use things however and now many I want” was generally the answer.

I hope that after all those nerfs you’ve pointed out, players and devs will see this leads nowhere and the approach to nerfs will change.

7 Likes

Exactly this…this has been brought up time and time again for “years”. Never seems to be popular for said reasons

And here we are, all paying the price

2 Likes

No, you’re just completely misinforming. People were saying this in relation to the squad limitations (only max 2 assault squads per lineups etc) and in context of the bizarre spawn score points (similar to WT).

Literally no one has said this in regards to AP mines only being available for certain classes etc.

I don’t like this at all.

I will again offer the solution I shared just few days after the release of Paratroopers.

The flares should mark the dropbzone. So absolutely everyone will know that the paratroopers are about to drop here…
Since this is the biggest problem noobs have. They don’t pay any attention to what’s going on above them. But once they know about the paratroopers, it’s pretty easy to shoot them down.

Then there wouldn’t need to be any artificial protection around the objectives, since it would be more or less impossible to survive such a drop.

Just a quick search. and thats just me


1 Like

No. That’s not what I have meant. I was one of those who suggested to limit mines to specific class (sniper & and AT squad.

What I meant is that literally nobody used this argument:

To counter these suggestions about mines limitations.

i misunderstood. I still think I have heard that response before though, granted its in regards to MANY things…(very common response)

probably cant be stuffed running another search though

1 Like

Yes, you have heard that. But in completely different context.

Well, it’s possible that my english just sucks. So it’s not on you.

1 Like

Well excpet maybe Darkflow. Whos blanket statement is “we dont want to limit anything” :stuck_out_tongue:

2 Likes

bd53d2ebf38379a3e875fa1210f91c54ce95f8d982e56fcd73aa16cd4dc81a0d_1

Make the AP mines great again! Add a 3-5 sec place time and give us the old damage values back.
Stop this silly nerfing just because some babies have l2p issues.

3 Likes

Ye don’t mind my solutions too much. It was just a way to illustrate the idea.

1 Like

I would have to agree with most of what you’re saying as well. Forcing people to have to use (per your example) things like smoke Grenades instead of spamming 3 different types of throwables (explosive, flammable, WP) is good for the game as it pushes for more team oriented play (which is the WHOLE POINT of enlisted). It’s hard to talk with your team with the few communications we have (especially for us Console players). More needs to be done to find productive solutions, not just make things useless like the AP mine nerf. Good ideas and thought put forth.

2 Likes

how did I know you would rush to reply to this lol

Healthier? From my perspective, the games are all still one sided seal clubbing’s, nothings changed. :joy:

i think that it is better to introduce 2 fixes for mines

  • mines could be activated by friendly players(with or without friendly damage)
  • if you drop mine on or near enemy rally point, that rally point gets destroyed

for me mines arent OP nor even annoying. what is annoying that in middle of firefight enemy is walking in minefield without problem and i step on same place he was in 2 second before and i die from mine.

3 Likes

I don’t think my response was only about AP mines, neither is this topic. Both are about balancing in general, that also includes AP mines amongst other things.

So please stop spreading missinformation and don’t twist my words.

1 Like

This should be implemented together with a rework of the para drop mechanic - they are all landing in an increadibly stupid straight line, which makes them increadibly easy to target- or to just shredd them when they all land on the exact same spot.