Italian Research Tree 🇮🇹

[Heakler_CZ]

Italian Research Tree

Hello, I would like to introduce a possible design for the future Italian technology tree. I have been playing with the idea of creating something like this for a while, to see for myself how it could work. Personally, I believe that the Italians have what it takes to have their own competitive tree, capable of facing both the Allies and the Soviets from Tier 1 to 4. I think the Italians should stay within these Tiers, as I can hardly imagine what kind of weapons, equipment, etc., they would have at Tier 5. However, for the remaining Tiers, the Italians should be more than sufficient!

Below are all four Tiers in a possible game layout. I wouldn’t comment much on the BR distribution or the Aircraft, which I personally am not very fond of. It’s mainly about presenting the abundance of Italian equipment and technology. I included aircraft only to make the technology tree complete. The same goes for the premium items, which I added just to have something there. Therefore, the aircraft and premium items, or possibly mortars and flamethrowers, could definitely be better conceived.

Tier 1

Tier 2

Tier 3

Tier 4

P43 Bis.
The inclusion of the P43 Bis is likely to be the most controversial aspect, which I wouldn’t have considered adding until recently. However, as we know, DF plans to add wooden models for the Japanese - Ho-Ri. Consequently, the Italians could also receive their “wooden model,” which would empower them to combat the Allied tanks at Tier 4. At the same time, I tried to ensure that most of the weapons and equipment were genuinely Italian, which is why I decided to add the P43 Bis instead of, for example, the Pz.IV G.

P43 Bis.

I have also included some weapons for golden cards or event squads. It’s a similar situation to the Italian squad with the FNAB-43, which was also available in the German tree as part of the Normandy campaign.

Villar-Perosa M1915
An interesting weapon for premium purposes is the Villar-Perosa M1915, sometimes referred to as the first submachine gun in the world, although some categorize this weapon more as a light machine gun. Originally designed as an anti-aircraft machine gun, the Italian army later began using it during World War I as an anti-infantry weapon. Although it was no longer in use during World War II, this design influenced the development of the OVP 1918 submachine gun. It would be a highly intriguing premium weapon to introduce alongside the Italian nation.

Villar-Perosa M1915

Breda-SAFAT “Folgore version”
Some of the most interesting and perhaps also somewhat controversial weapons are the Breda-SAFAT “Folgore version” which, despite its uniqueness, would become the top machine gun in the Italian tree. I refer to the post that informed me about this weapon: New machine gun paratrooper sqaud for German and Italy advice

Breda-SAFAT "Folgore version"

Cei-Rigotti Rifle
Another very interesting weapon is the Cei-Rigotti automatic rifle. Unfortunately, it was never adopted into the armory of the Italian army, even though it underwent trials before World War I. It’s somewhat like the Italian version of the Fedorov Avtomat. This particular model in my technology tree has a magazine capacity of 20 rounds and can fire in semi-automatic or automatic modes. However, there is also a version with a 30-round magazine. In this case, I refer to this post: Cei-Rigotti rifle (Italy)

Cei-Rigotti Rifle

Thank you for reading. I hope we will see such a tree, as well as a British tree. It’s a pity for the potential of these great nations and players of World War II to be overshadowed because they are part of their larger allies. However, I am personally convinced that in time, we will see both of these nations independently represented in the game.

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If you haven’t seen my article on the necessity of Italian separation from Germany, here is the previous piece:

• Italian faction is needed!

[Tural2003]

great job , I’ve been looking for a long time for something I can add to 4-5 br for the Italians, and you found p43, it’s amazing, but I think first we need to separate the British the reason is that they have a lot of equipment

[Valkay]

Italy does have enough SMGs to fill up a tech tree, but not enough equipment for everything else even if Hungarian, Romanian and Finnish equipment was added.
Germany also heavily relies on Italian equipment not to mention that Italy would still need German equipment which would result in grinding the same equipment like before the merge which absolute defeats the main positive feature of the update.

Italy only having 4BRs would cause the same problems Japan causes at the moment.
BR5 can’t face Japan but there are very few BR4 players in the US because of German BR5 so MM sucks BR3 US players to Pacific which creates unbalanced playerbase.

The only thing DF would win by seperating Italy as a faction is making players buy 4 more squad slots which isn’t worth it when the potential issues are considered.

Don’t get me wrong, the current state in which the Italian army is represented in the game at the moment is abysmal.
The real solution would be letting players buy Italian squads or change the nationality of the squad. Sub-faction exclusive equipment like for just an example: Breda PG being available to Italian squads only.

[MissingMayhem13]

Yes! I believe the Axis should have the Italian line adde, while the allied forces receive the British/UK.

There is so much Italian and Hungarian equipment and weapons in the research tree that it takes up space, as well as enough items to put them into their own research line.

I.E add more tech tree lines at the bottom of the “page/list” that would be Italian and the mix of Hungarian and such.

That goes for the British/UK as well, there is no reason as to why a British weapon should be down an American tech tree etc.

[Kriegerfaust007]

great job, mor in favor of UK/France first faction- USA of course as the second

[Puppylover77697]

If this idea is to be implemented I would love to see it alongside an Italian campaign with maps like Anzio and monte casino as well as the many battles in Sicily and the gothic+Gustav line

[ErikaKalkbrenner]

but the breda 501 is a post war tank.

not a ww2 one.

anyway, as it goes… eh…

there isn’t really a whole lot.

you’d have to stick some german tanks or planes into it too.

as it goes for the tech tree it self, not particularly against it.
i just don’t see the necessity of creating and splitting even more numbers ( when you can just have everything underneath one like the british etc .

but. devs do the thinking and doing. i don’t.

[Wieloglow]

Great work

[SzepWaxweiler]

You could have added more stuff here check this thread I made but good job nonetheless

Some Italian weapons

Here is all the things I could find for italy Cie riggotti [image] this is from the British museum with 20 rounds also British army was testing this weapon for adoption The Cei-Rigotti also known as the Cei gas rifle is an early selective-fire rifle created in the final years of the 19th century by Amerigo Cei-Rigotti, an officer in the Royal Italian Army. Although the rifle was never officially adopted by any military, it was tested extensively by the Italian Army during the lead-up to the…

[Heakler_CZ]

Regarding Breda 501, really?

When I looked at Italian websites about the “Semovente Ruotato da 90/53 Breda 501”, Ansaldo was supposed to have produced and tested two units before September 1943. Further potential testing and production were thwarted by the Armistice of the same year.

As I have already written, what I have listed in the tree is not everything. A lot of weapons, tanks, planes, carriers, and other vehicles and equipment could be added. Italy has great potential.

But of course, we all have our own opinions on this. I think that once it’s introduced on Steam, there will be enough players, and the Italians and British will be able to get their own tech trees.

[SzepWaxweiler]

BTW a question how did you make the pictures I might want to do one ?

[Veekay45]

@Heakler_CZ

P43 Bis.
The inclusion of the P43 Bis is likely to be the most controversial aspect, which I wouldn’t have considered adding until recently. However, as we know, DF plans to add wooden models for the Japanese - Ho-Ri. Consequently, the Italians could also receive their “wooden model,”

Strongly against this kind of stuff.

This is the way towards seeing this later at the Battle of France

And this in Berlin alongside Fedorov because why not… it even existed as a moving prototype which is already better than that Japanese Hor-Ny or PS 43 bis.

[ErikaKalkbrenner]

@Heakler_CZ

Regarding Breda 501, really?

When I looked at Italian websites about the “Semovente Ruotato da 90/53 Breda 501”, Ansaldo was supposed to have produced and tested two units before September 1943. Further potential testing and production were thwarted by the Armistice of the same year.

oh right.

got confused.

my mistake.

@Heakler_CZ

As I have already written, what I have listed in the tree is not everything. A lot of weapons, tanks, planes, carriers, and other vehicles and equipment could be added. Italy has great potential.

well. the problem with it is:

@Heakler_CZ

I think that once it’s introduced on Steam, there will be enough players, and the Italians and British will be able to get their own tech trees.

both in war thunder, and in enlisted when tunisia was actually a campaign of it’s own, there were barely enough players to get actual competition ( or teammates ) on the axis side.

in war thunder, they still are one of the lest played faction. or generally of niche.

which they then added more nations inside the italian tech tree such as Hungarian, and others nation vehicles to supply the lack in certain brs and what not.

doesn’t help that in enlisted we have certain equipment of italians as premium or events.

removing practically needed equipment for a stand alone faction.
( which would translate in 5 minutes matchmaker just to find enough people playing as italy and find opposition. otherwise, bots matches )

therefore, i’d argue it’s just better if they remain with germany.

so that players can still use both if they want, or have a flavor of both germany and italian units in their line up. or, go full germany/italian units.

otherwise you will just split and make people even more disappointed.

when it would be much simpler, and arguably better to fix the ability to get specific soldier of nationality, and proper uniforms.

instead of split and have more issues ( of potentially lose more items and what not ).

[SusTruppen]

well if the british or the italian gets different tech trees, that means there will be 2 faction figting against 1 or 2 other faction. which im not completely against it or anything, custom battle have already proven that. but it could cause some imbalance since there will be more players in the team with 2 factions

[Wieloglow]

I think that devs should consider adding Italians.

Currently Germans are fighting Allies and Soviets.
Allies - fight Germans and Japanese.

Which means - there is need for twice as much German and Allies players than for Soviets and Japanese.

After adding Italian army - Italians will fight Allies (Tunisia and Italy campaigns), so only Western Allies will have to need twice as players as other nations OR - the same number of players if they will be divided into British and US.

[Heakler_CZ]

Thank you, it’s evident that you have far more information about Italian weapons; perhaps I will update and supplement it sometime. As I have written, the Italians definitely have a lot to offer, and their tech tree would certainly not be just a copy-paste of the German tree. Except for anti-tank weapons, but that is also the case with the Soviets and it’s not a problem.

[Heakler_CZ]

Regarding the argument that it’s better to keep Germans and Italians together and everyone can play with whatever or whoever they want - purely Germans, purely Italians, or both together - I don’t quite agree.

From the perspective of people who mainly play Germans, it’s fine. Italians in the German tree have no impact on their gameplay. Conversely, theoretically, this means more players on the German side, and they can enrich their German squads with some Italian weapons, for example.

But for people who want to play as Italians, the situation is completely different. The only option to play as Italians, in Italian uniforms, and on their historical battlefield is to stick to Tiers 1-3. Therefore, you can’t equip yourself with some of the best Italian weapons or, for example, an Italian paratrooper squad, because that would eliminate Tunis from the available battlefields.

And even if you stick to Tier 1-3 equipment, there’s a huge chance that you’ll be thrown into Moscow, Stalingrad, Normandy, the Ardennes, or Berlin. With the exception of Stalingrad, these are battlefields that are simply a glaring mistake for Italian squads. Moreover, your Italian soldiers are more or less Germans with Italian equipment. And finally, even the technology that engineers can build is purely German.

Everything is simply set up so that the game from the perspective of the Germans is fine, but no consideration is given to the Italians.

That’s also why I almost completely stopped playing as Italians since the merge, because in most cases you’re not playing as Italians, but as Germans on German battlefields.

My only hope then lies in the Italians being separated from the Germans. Only at that moment will we experience playing as Italian squads with Italian weapons, uniforms, equipment, and technologies, all on battlefields where the Italians truly fought.

So, I very much hope that the current total neglect of Italians will be justified by an upcoming separation from the Germans

[CapitanRastrero]

I see this and I love this. However I don’t see why you stopped at BR IV, the Italians have weapons that can definitely meet BRV criteria, and indeed some of the things here are already BRV material, especially the SAFAT and the P43.bis. other Candidates for BRV weapons could be both versions of the Terni Mod. 21(Box Mag fed could be regular tech tree and FIAT-Revelli Magazine could be premium).

Theres also a lot more weapons that could be added in the middle BRs such as the 7.35mm conversion of the Breda Mod. 30, the Semi Auto Conversions of the Carcano M91 and M91 carbine, the Beretta M31 amd M37 semi autos.

Also no CV33?! C’mon!

[olek_z17]

@CapitanRastrero

Also no CV33?! C’mon!

Tankettes should unironically be added for something like a Rider II squad:)

@Heakler_CZ

P43 Bis.

NO.
I really like the gneral idea of this tech tree, but this is a bad idea. And argumenting it with Japan being forced into Tier V using paper tanks is bad as well. This way not only will we eventually end up with the O-I in the game, but this stupid mindset (referring to Darkflow, not to you of course) that every nation needs 5 tiers prevents us from ever seeing campaigns like the Battle of France or the Invasion of Poland.

Btw, I have a couple of questions about your weapon choices:

• First thing is the ZB-26. Yes, it was in the Tunisia campaign, but did Italians ever use it? Because I haven’t found anything about that. And it’s not like the ZB-26 is needed there since the FM24/29 was used by Italians (or at least captured by them).
• Panzerfausts and Panzerschreck. I know that they were technically used by the Italian Social Republic, but do we really need all three? Especially that the Lanciabombe supposedly fires HEAT grenades, so it should be viable in Tier III as well, or maybe even in Tier IV depending on the penetration. I think that just one should stay, either the RPzB 54 or the PzF 100.
• I don’t really know if the Cei-Rigotti should be there. It would make for a really cool event squad or a battle pass weapon, especially that it could be Tier IV due to its weaker cartridge and a rather low fire rate.
• The OG-44 should be at Tier II or maybe III, but not really at Tier IV. Considering that it would handle similarly to the OG-43 (which itself belongs in Tier I, not IV) but with a 40 round magazine, it would be almost identical to the Beretta M1 or M38/42 in performance.
• What is the SIA Mod. 38? Because the only thing I was able to find is the SIA Mod. 18, a heavy machine gun made for firing from a tripod. There is only one photo (or at least I think it’s a photo) of it with the stock, but it still retains the spade grips, so it can’t be practically handled like an LMG.

Also, Scotti Mod. X and Pavesi M42 are battle pass weapons, the TZ-45 and the Lanciafiamme Mod. 35 are premium squad weapons and the OG-43 as well as the Breda PG (I assume you mean the semi auto model) are event weapons. And while the merge forced some premium and even one event weapon (the M2 mortar) to appear in the tech tree, I believe that this should be avoided as much as possible. Also I’m pretty sure Darkflow would definitely not do something like this with battle pass weapons.

[Heakler_CZ]

I hope to answer everything in some way

@olek_z17

NO.
I really like the gneral idea of this tech tree, but this is a bad idea. And argumenting it with Japan being forced into Tier V using paper tanks is bad as well. This way not only will we eventually end up with the O-I in the game, but this stupid mindset (referring to Darkflow, not to you of course) that every nation needs 5 tiers prevents us from ever seeing campaigns like the Battle of France or the Invasion of Poland.

Honestly, regarding the P43 Bis, I haven’t quite made up my mind about whether I’d want it in the game or not. On one hand, thanks to it, there might not be any need for a German tank in the tree, at least I don’t see the necessity for one. Theoretically, it could work without it, but then the final tier would lack a classic tank with a rotating turret. So, it’s hard to say, I don’t have a clear opinion on whether it should be there or not.

@olek_z17

First thing is the ZB-26. Yes, it was in the Tunisia campaign, but did Italians ever use it? Because I haven’t found anything about that. And it’s not like the ZB-26 is needed there since the FM24/29 was used by Italians (or at least captured by them).

I was waiting to see if anyone would ask. To be honest, I also didn’t know before that there were quite a few ZB-26s in the Italian army. The Italians obtained them in relatively large numbers in Yugoslavia. I owe this information to @Patton1998 and I’m attaching some of the photos provided by him.

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@olek_z17

Panzerfausts and Panzerschreck. I know that they were technically used by the Italian Social Republic, but do we really need all three? Especially that the Lanciabombe supposedly fires HEAT grenades, so it should be viable in Tier III as well, or maybe even in Tier IV depending on the penetration. I think that just one should stay, either the RPzB 54 or the PzF 100.

So, the Lanciabombe will definitely be a very interesting anti-tank weapon, but with its penetration, it falls into the same category as the Sturmpistole, GrB-39, or the Japanese Type 4 and Type 5. This is because the Lanciabombe was reportedly capable of penetrating 70 mm of armor. Given that the Germans supplied the Italians with both Panzerfausts and Panzerschrecks, I don’t see a reason why they wouldn’t use them. After all, this is how it’s also dealt with in the case of the Soviets, except that the Italians additionally used the Panzerschreck.

@olek_z17

I don’t really know if the Cei-Rigotti should be there. It would make for a really cool event squad or a battle pass

It depends on whether there would be an adequate replacement for the Cei-Rigotti, which theoretically could be something like the Terni Mod. 21, as mentioned by @CapitanRastrero, to possibly replace the Cei-Rigotti. But personally, I would be fine with keeping the Cei-Rigotti in the tree; it’s kind of the Italian equivalent of the Fedorov.

@olek_z17

The OG-44 should be at Tier II or maybe III, but not really at Tier IV. Considering that it would handle similarly to the OG-43 (which itself belongs in Tier I, not IV) but with a 40 round magazine, it would be almost identical to the Beretta M1 or M38/42 in performance.

Well, there isn’t that much difference between the OG-44 and the Beretta M38 (40r). They use the same ammunition and magazines. The difference is in the rate of fire, with the OG-44 having 550 and the Beretta 600, but the OG has a slightly higher muzzle velocity and is lighter, which could make aiming faster than with the Beretta. Anyway, it seems to me that the OG-44 is slightly inferior, but more or less very comparable to the Beretta, so having them on the same level seems fine to me.

@olek_z17

What is the SIA Mod. 38? Because the only thing I was able to find is the SIA Mod. 18, a heavy machine gun made for firing from a tripod. There is only one photo (or at least I think it’s a photo) of it with the stock, but it still retains the spade grips, so it can’t be practically handled like an LMG.

I discovered the SIA mod. 1938 through an article by @orizin2. I am primarily drawing from the information he provided. I’ll leave a link to his post for reference: Italian unificated tech tree. However, as an LMG, it doesn’t seem to me that the spade grips are a permanent feature. But it’s hard to say, I don’t have more detailed information. In any case, I think it’s appropriate to utilize such a weapon in the tree.

@olek_z17

Also, Scotti Mod. X and Pavesi M42 are battle pass weapons, the TZ-45 and the Lanciafiamme Mod. 35 are premium squad weapons and the OG-43 as well as the Breda PG (I assume you mean the semi auto model) are event weapons. And while the merge forced some premium and even one event weapon (the M2 mortar) to appear in the tech tree, I believe that this should be avoided as much as possible. Also I’m pretty sure Darkflow would definitely not do something like this with battle pass weapons.

It’s hard to say how Darkflow will handle the division of factions, as nothing like this has been done before. Moreover, the originally premium weapon of the 8th Bersaglieri Regiment squad - FNAB-43 - was later also added to Normandy as a commonly obtainable weapon. Apart from that, I would personally resolve it by keeping these weapons for gold cards in the German army, while the Italians would have them commonly available in their tree. Additionally, they could be removed from BP weapons and remain only for those who acquired them during the time of the combined German and Italian forces, similarly to how DF handled the MP 717(r), Thompson, or Breda in Stalingrad.