Italian Research Tree 🇮🇹

[Myrm1don]

very nice mate! has most of the stuff I really miss!!

at first I thought you were missing one of my favourite planes, The SM.91, But you arent, you just have the wrong picture.

picture is SM.92 (should add aswell). This is SM.91

Also really want a place for the AS-42

[Heakler_CZ]

Thanks a lot, man!

You see! I knew there would be some mistake… It was really supposed to be SM.91, I just got it mixed up with SM.92 when inserting the image.

Agreed, the AS-42 deserves a spot in the Italian tree! Not just in mine, but ideally in that not yet exist game tree too! I’m already preparing an update and adding a variety of weapons and equipment, including the AS-42. Also, thanks to everyone else who provided different sources for more Italian armaments!

[SzepWaxweiler]

@olek_z17

SIA Mod. 38?

SIA Mod. 1938

[Patton1998]

@Heakler_CZ

Honestly, regarding the P43 Bis, I haven’t quite made up my mind about whether I’d want it in the game or not. On one hand, thanks to it, there might not be any need for a German tank in the tree, at least I don’t see the necessity for one. Theoretically, it could work without it, but then the final tier would lack a classic tank with a rotating turret. So, it’s hard to say, I don’t have a clear opinion on whether it should be there or not.

the 43Bis is necessary because the only other alternative would be the Tiger and the latter would be more suitable for 5 (although still inferior to KT and SP) while the Bis for tier 4

@Heakler_CZ

I was waiting to see if anyone would ask. To be honest, I also didn’t know before that there were quite a few ZB-26s in the Italian army. The Italians obtained them in relatively large numbers in Yugoslavia. I owe this information to @Patton1998 and I’m attaching some of the photos provided by him.

another photo in russia

@Heakler_CZ

So, the Lanciabombe will definitely be a very interesting anti-tank weapon, but with its penetration, it falls into the same category as the Sturmpistole, GrB-39, or the Japanese Type 4 and Type 5. This is because the Lanciabombe was reportedly capable of penetrating 70 mm of armor. Given that the Germans supplied the Italians with both Panzerfausts and Panzerschrecks, I don’t see a reason why they wouldn’t use them. After all, this is how it’s also dealt with in the case of the Soviets, except that the Italians additionally used the Panzerschreck.

other weapons could be the Scotti anti-tank rifle and its mysterious Breda Mk2

and another anti-tank weapon could be the Belmondo rocket launcher but I never found any photos during the tests

The virtually unknown Italian Breda Mk.II 12.7 mm anti-tank rifle of 1941

I’m in a real hurry so I’ll stop here and continue later
I’m working on something in my spare time (H&G veterans will probably have seen this before) maybe we can work together

[Life_burns]

You can add also :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=jNrAsnfI5-k
Baretta1918/30 that is semi auto

Lupara for a shotgun option

Light machine gun Breda Mod.5G\Breda Mod. 5C can be put also before Breda 30 just like there is multiple BARs in the game why not 2 versions of Breda?

ZB vz.30 and MG 42 are also options or Madsen machine gun. There is good replacements for USSR and GE and the ZB and Madsen family can be moved to Italy and MG 42 can be in GE and Italy at the same time.

Scotti Naval rifle can be premium weapon or put at the end also
https://guns.fandom.com/wiki/Scotti_Naval_rifle

Isotta Fraschini Mod. Albertini also can be good gold order weapon:
https://guns.fandom.com/wiki/Isotta_Fraschini_Mod._Albertini

For Tanks there can be added few German tanks for extra options like:
Pz.III N,Pz.IV G ,StuG III G, and Italian Panther:
https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/italy/italian-panther/

Also Carro Armato L6/40 is a good option or Semovente B1-bis for premium vehicles

[Patton1998]

@Life_burns

Baretta1918/30 that is semi auto

It’s already in the game but unfortunately it’s a golden weapon
in my opinion the Italian gold weapons should remain in the German tree as exclusives for Germany and tech tree/event for Italy

other semi auto rifles could be the G41 and G43

@Life_burns

Light machine gun Breda Mod.5G\Breda Mod. 5C can be put also before Breda 30 just like there is multiple BARs in the game why not 2 versions of Breda?

I don’t know how much sense it would make, they are basically breda with tripod and for use in vehicles identical but for different uses

other LMGs could be there

Terni LMG

Isotta Fraschini LMG

@Life_burns

ZB vz.30 and MG 42 are also options or Madsen machine gun. There is good replacements for USSR and GE and the ZB and Madsen family can be moved to Italy and MG 42 can be in GE and Italy at the same time.

Italy used good quantities of Mg42 but also Mg15

@Life_burns

Scotti Naval rifle can be premium weapon or put at the end also

the scotti must absolutely be in the tech tree, it is practically the only weapon comparable to STG or Fedorov (more or less)

[SzepWaxweiler]

@Patton1998

other semi auto rifles

Terni m91 semiauto
Pavesi Prototype SVT Copy
Beretta Model 1931 & 1937 Experimental Semiauto Rifles

@Patton1998

it is practically the only weapon comparable to STG or Fedorov

Not the only one
Terni Model 1921
and also Cie riggotti with 30 round mag

[Life_burns]

@Patton1998

I don’t know how much sense it would make, they are basically breda with tripod and for use in vehicles identical but for different uses

Well I’m talking about the Breda Mod.5G that is just earlier version of Breda 30 there is even option to make Breda 30 shoot 7.35×51mm Carcano while Breda Mod.5G will shoot 6.5×52mm Carcano wich will make a bit bigger difference in the damage.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breda_Mod._5C#/media/File:Breda_Mod._5G.jpg

[Life_burns]

@Valkay

Germany also heavily relies on Italian equipment not to mention that Italy would still need German equipment which would result in grinding the same equipment like before the merge which absolute defeats the main positive feature of the update.

I will have to disagree I don’t think if there is a list of share equipment between Axis and Allies factions. If you have MG 42 with Italy you wont have to grind the same weapon with Germany you will be able to continue the grind with your main faction and be able to play the equipment without starting the grind from the beginning with different faction. The problem before the merge is that you had to grind the same equipment with the same faction on a different campaigns. So you basically had 4 German Factions that you had to grind and it was not fun for German players here you will have to decide will you play Germany with better end game equipment or Italy with better early game equipment.

@Valkay

Italy only having 4BRs would cause the same problems Japan causes at the moment.
BR5 can’t face Japan but there are very few BR4 players in the US because of German BR5 so MM sucks BR3 US players to Pacific which creates unbalanced player base.

No it wont cuz Italy will be on every game together with Germany while Japan is a lone wolf if Japan was backed up by Germany it will be different story. Playing Italy tier 3 with Germany tier 5 on your side will be more balanced then Japan on its own. To be honest Italy will bring only diversity to the game without negative effects even if its empty you will be together with the German faction as a support faction and you wont feel it as much as Japan in the pacific that its on its own.

[olek_z17]

Yeah, that answered way more than I expected, thanks a lot:)

@Heakler_CZ

Honestly, regarding the P43 Bis, I haven’t quite made up my mind about whether I’d want it in the game or not. On one hand, thanks to it, there might not be any need for a German tank in the tree, at least I don’t see the necessity for one. Theoretically, it could work without it, but then the final tier would lack a classic tank with a rotating turret. So, it’s hard to say, I don’t have a clear opinion on whether it should be there or not.

To be fair, I’d rather see a Panzer IV in the Italian tech tree than a wooden mock-up. But that’s just me, I find things like that quite immersion breaking.

@Heakler_CZ

I was waiting to see if anyone would ask. To be honest, I also didn’t know before that there were quite a few ZB-26s in the Italian army. The Italians obtained them in relatively large numbers in Yugoslavia. I owe this information to @Patton1998 and I’m attaching some of the photos provided by him.

OK, I see. I just wondered if that was a real thing, now I know.

@Heakler_CZ

So, the Lanciabombe will definitely be a very interesting anti-tank weapon, but with its penetration, it falls into the same category as the Sturmpistole, GrB-39, or the Japanese Type 4 and Type 5. This is because the Lanciabombe was reportedly capable of penetrating 70 mm of armor. Given that the Germans supplied the Italians with both Panzerfausts and Panzerschrecks, I don’t see a reason why they wouldn’t use them. After all, this is how it’s also dealt with in the case of the Soviets, except that the Italians additionally used the Panzerschreck.

Yeah, it would probably be similar to the PIAT, both when it comes to penetration and ballistics. I’m still not sure about having both PzF 100 and RPzB 54 at Tier IV, but the PzF 60 should stay in that case.

@Heakler_CZ

It depends on whether there would be an adequate replacement for the Cei-Rigotti, which theoretically could be something like the Terni Mod. 21, as mentioned by @CapitanRastrero, to possibly replace the Cei-Rigotti. But personally, I would be fine with keeping the Cei-Rigotti in the tree; it’s kind of the Italian equivalent of the Fedorov.

That’s exactly why I’m not a fan of this rifle in the tech tree - it would be an equivalent of the Fyodorov. I don’t think every country should have a select fire rifle in the tech tree, especially in Tier IV. I think it would be a nice battle pass or event (or even premium squad) weapon, but not in the tech tree. Especially that the Breda PG (the semi auto event variant, definitely not the burst battle pass one) would be more then enough for a Tier IV rifle - it’s incredibly controllable, has nice sights and a 20 round magazine.

@Heakler_CZ

Well, there isn’t that much difference between the OG-44 and the Beretta M38 (40r). They use the same ammunition and magazines. The difference is in the rate of fire, with the OG-44 having 550 and the Beretta 600, but the OG has a slightly higher muzzle velocity and is lighter, which could make aiming faster than with the Beretta. Anyway, it seems to me that the OG-44 is slightly inferior, but more or less very comparable to the Beretta, so having them on the same level seems fine to me.

From what I know, the Armaguerra SMGs (both the OG-43 and OG-44) had a fire rate of around 500 rpm. Upgraded, it would be 570 rpm, so the same as the Beretta M1 or M38/42, so I would still put it at Tier III. I don’t know if you have the event Italian paratrooper squad with the OG-43, the OG-44 should handle the essentially same but with twice the magazine capacity.

@Heakler_CZ

I discovered the SIA mod. 1938 through an article by @orizin2. I am primarily drawing from the information he provided. I’ll leave a link to his post for reference: Italian unificated tech tree. However, as an LMG, it doesn’t seem to me that the spade grips are a permanent feature. But it’s hard to say, I don’t have more detailed information. In any case, I think it’s appropriate to utilize such a weapon in the tree.

I would personally not include it until some photos of the gun with a hypothetical pistol grip are available. Especially that there were other LMGs mentioned below that would fill in that gap, for example this thing (whatever it’s called, I searched it on Google and it came up as a “Scotti 1937 machine gun”):

@Heakler_CZ

Apart from that, I would personally resolve it by keeping these weapons for gold cards in the German army, while the Italians would have them commonly available in their tree.

That might be a decent solution, though to be honest I’m still not a fan of that, especially that it might be possible to find replacements for most of these guns that aren’t BP/event/premium.

Anyway, I really like that kind of mental exercises, so I’ll probably try to make my own “version” of the tech tree and post it here. I’ll see what I come up with:)

[olek_z17]

@Patton1998

the scotti must absolutely be in the tech tree, it is practically the only weapon comparable to STG or Fedorov (more or less)

Why do people want all factions to get 5 ranks so desperately?

@Patton1998

Terni LMG

Isotta Fraschini LMG

Could you give some more information about these two LMGs? Can be in Italian, I’ll use google translate. Because the only thing I was able to find is about the 2nd one in this Reddit post: https://www.reddit.com/r/ForgottenWeapons/comments/wtulni/scotti_1937_machine_guns_any_information/, but I still don’t have enough stats to decide where these should be.

[Patton1998]

@olek_z17

Why do people want all factions to get 5 ranks so desperately?

Don’t get me wrong, for me we could stop at tier 4 and avoid the chaos of tier 5 but given that Dark, in order to get the Japanese (which are worse off than Italy in high-level terrestrial equipment due to different priorities), they put a practically imaginary tank in tier 5, I prefer to create a tier 5 for Italy as a security measure

@olek_z17

Could you give some more information about these two LMGs? Can be in Italian, I’ll use google translate. Because the only thing I was able to find is about the 2nd one in this Reddit post: https://www.reddit.com/r/ForgottenWeapons/comments/wtulni/scotti_1937_machine_guns_any_information/, but I still don’t have enough stats to decide where these should be.

TERNI LMG
The “Terni” LMG was designed in 1929, subjected to tests in 1932 and finally approved in 1933, after having attracted enthusiasm for its performance and characteristics, which were remarkable for those times. However, it was never adopted into service, nor is it possible to ascertain how many examples were built. The only one in existence is preserved in the Technical Collection of the Light Weapons Maintenance Center of Terni. The weapon in question shows off an elegant and harmonious line and is carefully crafted in every part, as in the best traditions of the Fabbrica d’Armi. Once the cartridge lubrication device has been eliminated, the locking and firing mechanisms have been revised, and the barrel has been simplified, the “Terni” is made up of approximately 30% fewer components compared to the “Breda '30”, all milled and finely finished since there are no molded parts, made with excellent materials since the breech, the bolt, the firing pin and the locking block are made of low carbon steel, heat treated to cement the surfaces.

Scotti Isotta Fraschini LMG
The information on the Scotti Isotta Fraschini LMG is quite fragmented and requires more research in the photo you can see one with a 40 round 8 mm magazine (practically an automatic Pavesi 42) but unlike the Terni it was produced in a small batch and used by police units equipped with the Motomitragliatrice blindata Guzzi (I have many more photos of this vehicle with the LMG if anyone is interested)

FIAT 14 EXPERIMENTAL
I have practically no information on this one except that it is a FIAT 14 and that it has been modified to be a lightened version in the style of the MG08/18

another possible experiment we are probably in ww1 or shortly after perhaps an initial version

[MrGibbles0]

The game as it is, with the limited player base it has, should not expand past 4 factions. You can already see it with US BRIII/IV in the Pacific, and depending on the time of day the other factions as well, how underpopulated the game can be.

Now I’m not saying there shouldn’t be more Italian or British/Commonwealth representation or even full on tech trees, just not in the form the current 4 factions have. I believe they should be Sub-tree’s within the current factions we already have.

For example the Italians, I think the tech tree you presented should be below the German one, so that players can choose to progress down the German tree or the Italian tree, but have both as the German faction so that when it comes to matchmaking German/Italian players are the same and don’t divide it up further.

The Italian tree would also come with their own squads in this system, so that in the far future if the player base expands and it’s not as detrimental to have a 5th faction, then it can be safely done without needing to cause the same squad removal/rework that needed to happen when the 5 german factions became one with the merge. What I mean by this is giving the Italian sub-faction their own tanker squads won’t require a eventual faction division to need to rework the German tankers to remove all the Italian tanks, since they’d all be in the Italian squads already.

[olek_z17]

Once again, thanks a lot for the info. I have couple more questions though about the MGs. Are there any statistics available for the Terni machine gun? Rate of fire, weight and so on? Because from the description you gave it’s a “Breda Mod. 30 but better”, so I’d say that in game it should have maybe lower recoil and be at Tier III. Also, what’s the fire rate of the Scotti? Because considering that it has a 40 round magazine and fires the 8mm round, I think it could be a nice replacement for the SIA Mod. 38 at Tier IV. Though I’m a bit worried that there are no photos of the gun with the stock other than this one:

@Patton1998

Don’t get me wrong, for me we could stop at tier 4 and avoid the chaos of tier 5 but given that Dark, in order to get the Japanese (which are worse off than Italy in high-level terrestrial equipment due to different priorities), they put a practically imaginary tank in tier 5, I prefer to create a tier 5 for Italy as a security measure

Yeah, I don’t like that either. That’s why my version of the tree will likely look less impressive than the original suggestion, but I’m trying to keep it more less authentic, akin to the Japanese tree before the Tokyo Arsenal SMG was added (it’s too experimental for me, especially that its fire rate is “a bug, not a feature”).

[olek_z17]

@MrGibbles0

The game as it is, with the limited player base it has, should not expand past 4 factions. You can already see it with US BRIII/IV in the Pacific, and depending on the time of day the other factions as well, how underpopulated the game can be.

Now I’m not saying there shouldn’t be more Italian or British/Commonwealth representation or even full on tech trees, just not in the form the current 4 factions have. I believe they should be Sub-tree’s within the current factions we already have.

If the problem is queue times, there is a very easy solution that has no downsides - mixed teams. Italiy and Germany were allies, so I don’t see why they wouldn’t be allowed to play in the same battle on the same side, against for example the US and the Commonwealth.
This way we don’t get longer queue times but the battles would be more realistic as you won’t see Italians running around with German weapons they never used, not to mention the current issue that you can play Italians in Berlin, Moscow, Normandy and the Bulge.

[MrGibbles0]

@olek_z17

not to mention the current issue that you can play Italians in Berlin, Moscow, Normandy and the Bulge.

This could create a confusing environment then, since that would leave Tunisia and Stalingrad at the moment for Italians to play in, assuming if/when they are added a new Operation Husky/Invasion of Italy Campaign for BRIII/IV/V doesn’t release initially with them.

It would also still effect German Queue times for those 4 campaigns since the matchmaker would need to find only Germans for those maps, though to a lesser degree since they could still match with Italians in Stalingrad across all BR’s, or with Italians in Tunisia at BR I/II/III.

I like that solution as well but if they do that I’d prefer them being sent to the same maps Germans can just to make things simpler MM wise. Historical accuracy doesn’t mean much when Japans getting the Ho-Ri production for BRV or PPS-43’s being in Moscow.

[olek_z17]

@MrGibbles0

Historical accuracy doesn’t mean much when Japans getting the Ho-Ri production for BRV or PPS-43’s being in Moscow.

I don’t want historical accuracy, that’s what Hell Let Loose or Red Orchestra 2 is for. I want immersion, and seeing Italians in Normandy is the same for me as seeing Soviets in Tunisia. Especially that keeping the factions and weapons specific to their battlefields was one of the defining features of the pre-merge Enlisted, and I don’t like the fact that Darkflow got rid of that.

@MrGibbles0

This could create a confusing environment then, since that would leave Tunisia and Stalingrad at the moment for Italians to play in, assuming if/when they are added a new Operation Husky/Invasion of Italy Campaign for BRIII/IV/V doesn’t release initially with them.

Yes, releasing the Italians as a separate faction would definitely need a BRIII/IV (I still believe Italy and Japan should not get Tier V) set of maps, and I think that Invasion of Italy would be a good idea for that.

[Heakler_CZ]

Italy cannot remain as a sub-faction of Germany precisely because Italian squads are actively added to battles where Italians never fought. The only solution is to separate Italy from Germany, ensuring that Italians are only where they should be (Tunis, Stalingrad). Also, concerns that this will harm the Germans in their matchmaking are unfounded, as has been mentioned here. In both Tunis and Stalingrad, or in the Invasion of Italy, there will be mixed teams of Germans and Italians, and the matchmaking will deploy both Germans and Italians into battles. Nothing will change, except that Italians will have their own new content and, most importantly, will fight only where they are supposed to.

[Heakler_CZ]

Bro, do you have any information on other rifles with scopes besides the Carcano Mod. 38 and Carcano M91? The best would be some sort of semi-automatic rifle. Even if they were just experimental. I’ve tried to find any others, but without success. Given your knowledge, you might have better information.

[CapitanRastrero]

@olek_z17

That’s exactly why I’m not a fan of this rifle in the tech tree - it would be an equivalent of the Fyodorov. I don’t think every country should have a select fire rifle in the tech tree, especially in Tier IV. I think it would be a nice battle pass or event (or even premium squad) weapon, but not in the tech tree. Especially that the Breda PG (the semi auto event variant, definitely not the burst battle pass one) would be more then enough for a Tier IV rifle - it’s incredibly controllable, has nice sights and a 20 round magazine.

Unfourtunately, my good man, Pandoras box of imaginary ARs, Tanks and Scenarios has been open and it cannot be closed. Almost every country has a select fire rifle and for that reason every nation should get one. The Terni Mod.21 is the perfect candidate for Italy. Its not fair that Soviets get however many variants of AK-47 and Fedorov, and Germans get many Variants of Stg.44 and everyone else is left to kick rocks.