Thatās what tiers are for though, and thatās why I believe not all factions should get Tier V. And itās not like all people want is to just play āCall of Duty with squadsā on top tier, there is plenty of players who enjoy lower tiers as well, so factions without Tier V would have their players too.
That argument makes no sense because BR 4 faces BR 3 and 5, so if they add a late war South Italy maps they will face BR 5 Weaponry and Vechs with none of their own to counter. Furthermore if you would want to relegate Italy to play only in the Lower BRs(1, 2 and 3) why even have BR4 weapons and Vechs for them?
I understabd the argument of hitorical accuracy and I would like that aswell, I do not want this game to become Battlefield V. But like I said if DF and Gaijin wouldnt have gone over board with Stgs AKs and Russian Belt-Feds that we wouldnt have this issue. The game is already full of experimental gun spam especially if you play Soviet or Axis BR 3 and up.
In conclusion my suggestion is to let Italy have things like the Terni Mod.21 and P.43bis BUT also add maps that alow us to play fair and balanced matches in the appropriate setting!
Japan BRIV doesnāt face US BRV though, thatās how it should be done - top tier cannot be up-tiered, so if a faction has just four tiers, it should not be able to play against the fifth tier of other factions.
Besides, while you theoretically can push Japan and Italy into Tier V using paper vehicles and prototype weapons, you canāt do that with all factions that I hope will eventually come into the game. What would Poland, Finland and France get for their Tier V?
I wasnāt aware of that first point, I should be as I often play Japan BR 4.
I am in total agreement with you. What will DF do if they wish to add more nations/Factions?
I would love if these factions/nations where independant however what would that mean? Finland and France would probably only go up to BR3 and have a sparce research tree. Would it devide the player base more given that some of the theaters of war where these āsmallerā nations fought where only operated by them and their enemy? Would it be feasable for them to achieve some semblance of balance given their equipment?
Would it make more sense to integrate them into existing Research Trees?
I woild love to ponder all these questions but this is not the forum post for that
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Bellissimo.
2 Likes
Thatās why these factions should be added slowly, as the game grows. The first thing should be the separation of the Commonwealth from the USA as they fought together on all theaters we have in the game, so there would be no playerbase splitting. Then of course the Italy and after some time, maybe other factions.
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Then you would need to grind from zero and pay again for the slots which almost nobody would do and that nation will be played by no one. Itās not sustainable unless they would share slot count of the Axis while keeping their army separate.
How else would the game progress though if you canāt add factions?
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unfortunately not or rather I canāt find data but fortunately an example still exists and is at the Terni Weapons Museum (the weapons paradise with over 4000 pieces including the Terni Mod.21) you could ask them, they certainly have more data
basically it is what it is
but since it is 30% lighter and has an additional grip in the stock it could have a better hip fire
basically the same situation as Terni but worseā¦ there is no adequate information for example not even the caliber Iām sure itās 8mm because in that photo it says itās 8mm but in other descriptions itās indicated as 6.5 itās a mess but itās worth it continue to investigate given that if the 8mm version exists it would be an excellent weapon (but even at 6.5 it would still be an extra weapon)
all on a Carcano base (and maybe some German K98) Iāll leave you this page with the various optics
unfortunately as with japan to justify the development of an SA sniper rifle you must first have an SA rifle in sufficient quantitiesā¦
maybe there could be something for the G41 but it is already rare to find the original G41 in Italian hands
The ONLY RIFLE Iāve found so far is this photo of a 1939 Beretta (it seems like a slightly different Mab18/30) with optics
two Bonus photos
Italian ghillie
mysterious rifle with optics
Milan trade fair 1941
The Minister of Communications Giovanni Host Venturi, visiting with the Count of Turin Vittorio Emanuele of Savoy (not in the field of vision), accompanied by the president of the Fair Piero Puricelli and other personalities, stops to observe a rifle in the weapons exhibition
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I donāt mind grinding from scratch; on the contrary, I mostly welcome new content. The idea that nobody would play it isnāt entirely true, at least everyone who plays as Italy for Germany would switch to this tree and then many others would follow, because the majority of people play more than one nation. As for sharing slots with Germanyā¦ I doubt Gaijin would do that, as it would mean losing a lot of money. Anyway, I wouldnāt have a problem with it, Iāve bought slots for the Germans, Japanese, Soviets and I would immediately do the same for the Italians.
i would rather them to add unique nations like France that never had weapons and vehicles fully available in other nation trees
So no surviving examples of this gun exist, right?
Also, I have another question. I stumbled upon this thing when researching possible additions: Scotti Om42: troppo bella, troppo tardi - Armi e Tiro. Do you know by any chances what is its fire rate?
no survivors as far as I know
NOPE
not even in the Armi e Tiro article (who are the only source available thanks to the fact that they had the chance to see this recent rediscovery) is the rate of fire reported, at the moment it is unknown
hereās a cat for consolation
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As if feathers on helmets werenāt enough:)
Thatās a shame. Regardless, with 20 rounds of 9mm Mauser Export I think it would be good for Tier II. High damage, but very low magazine capacity as as trade-off.
the SMG sector is perhaps the most well-equipped as regards the OM42, either information can be found or an estimate can be made (after all, I challenge someone to complain about a fictitious rate of fire after what the Japanese will receive)
other possible SMGs
Pavesi-Revelli submachine gun
Genar PM-470
SOSSO SMG
MAB38 prototype ( the barrel reminds me of some vintage space weapon XD )
While I wonāt tell you this, you have to find out for yourself (spoiler, itās not an Italian weapon)
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OK, I promised a couple of days ago that I would show my idea of the tech tree, so here it is, with some explanation regarding my weapon and vehicle choices:
Tier I
Tier II
Tier III
Tier IV
Old premium squads
I decided to include the pre-merge premium squads, these ones:
- M13/40 (III) (moved to Tier I where it belongs)
- Beretta Mod. 31
- Breda 88 (P.XI) (moved from tech tree, replaced with the Ju 87 R-2)
- Re.2001 CN (moved from tech tree, replaced with the Re. 2001 CB)
- Lanciafiamme Mod. 35 (moved to Tier IV, renamed as the Mod. 40)
The only pre-merge Tunisia premium squads I did not include are the Pz.III N and the FNAB-43 squads. The former as itās a German squad, and the latter because the FNAB-43 is already in the tree. I also think that the FNAB-43 squad would be a nice collectible squad, brought back for Enlisted birthdays and so on. Especially that itās a Bersaglieri squad, so theyāre even more collectible with their feather helmets.
Flamethrowers
All of the factions in the game have two tech tree flamethrowers, and I decided to do the same thing here. The problem was the pre-merge flametrooper premium squad, equipped with the Lf Mod. 35 which has stats of a Tier IV flamethrower (Flammenwerfer 41, M2 and so on). So to avoid having a weird situation where the chronologically first flamethrower is not the weakest one, I changed the name of the Premium squadās flamethrower to the Lf Mod. 40 as I noticed that they have essentially identical gun parts. So now I have th Lf Mod. 35 at Tier III and the Lf Mod. 41 and the premium Lf Mod. 40 at Tier IV.
Lf Mod. 41
Tier I
Added:
-
Vetterli-Vitali
Because why not? It would be a cool bolt action rifle with a high damage but lower fire rate -
AS.42
Itās just a classic. Plus it would serve as the Tier I SPAA for Italy. I put it in place of the M11/39 as I donāt think it would be a good vehicle. Iām not against it though, just was trying to fit the AS.42 somewhere. -
L3 Lanciafiamme
Just so that the Italians can get a flamethrower tank. Since I donāt know if adding a vehicle with a trailer would be a good idea, I think it should be the variant with the smaller fuel tank mounted over the engine compartment.
Tier II
Removed:
-
Scotti Mod. X
Itās a battle pass weapon, and I feel like itās too similar to the Armaguerra Mod. 39 to justify putting a battle pass weapon in the tree. -
OG-43
The same thing, itās an event squad weapon. Plus Italy has enough SMGs, it can do without the OG-43 in the tree. -
Lancia 3Ro (100/17)
That was a gun truck, wasnāt it? Besides, premium APC squads seem to have actual APCs instead of trucks.
Added:
-
Mannlicher M1895
I found out that Italians used that rifle, so I added it. Because again, why not? -
Beretta M1
Moved from Tier III - I think it should get its recoil slightly nerfed (or its magazine replaced by a 30 round one) and be moved into Tier II. -
Pz. III N
Italians used it, so why not? It would be different from the other Tier II Italian tanks as it has a 75mm howitzer, so it would be good against infantry. -
C. 202EC
There is no change there, just the name so that itās the same as in the game. -
Ju 87 R-2
In place of the Breda 88 which is a premium squad vehicle. -
Beretta Mod. 31
From the pre-merge radiooperator squad. -
Fiat 655NM Protetto
I was split between this and the Autoprotetto S.37, but the S.37 is too small (driver and 8 passengers). That and the Fiat is literally a battlebus, so the choice was kinda obvious:) -
Scotti Mod. 42
Itās kinda interesting - just 20 rounds, but powerful ones (9mm Mauser Export). I donāt know its fire rate, but with that magazine capacity, I donāt think it can go anywhere besides Tier II.
Tier III
Removed:
-
Pavesi M42
Again, itās a battle pass weapon, and I find a rifle that fits in that place better. -
Beretta M1
Moved into Tier II. -
TZ-45
Moved into Tier IV. -
Re.2001 CN
Replaced by the Re.2001 CB variant in the tech tree as the CN is a premium vehicle. -
M14/41 (47/40)
We already have the M13/40 (III) premium squad, these would be very similar.
Added:
-
Beretta Mod. 37
Itās the only Italian semi auto rifle I found that doesnāt use the Mannlicher style clip. It has a 9 round magazine and shoots the 7.35Ć51mm, so I think itās a very good rifle for Tier III. -
Beretta M38/42
Itās a Tier III weapon, so it should be here. -
OG-44
It is too weak for Tier IV, at least if we assume the same fire rate as the OG-43, so 570 rpm upgraded, as well as the same recoil stats. -
StuG III G
Again - Italians used it, so why not? -
Terni LMG
From what I can gather about this weapon, it seems to be a āBreda Mod. 30, but betterā. So I think it should have better recoil stats than the Breda and be at Tier III. -
90/53 M41M
It has 8 rounds, thatās why I believe it shouldnāt be at Tier IV, nor should it be in the research tree (too situational for my taste).
Tier IV
Removed:
-
Cei-Rigotti
I donāt believe it should be a tech tree weapon. I think there are multiple ways to implement it though, be it as a battle pass, premium or event weapon. -
Beretta M38/42
Moved to Tier III. -
OG-44
Moved to Tier III. -
SIA Mod. 38
It has spade grips, I donāt think it would be usable as an LMG. -
90/53 M41M
Moved to Tier III as a premium. -
P43 Bis
Itās a paper tank, i donāt believe they should be in the game.
Added:
-
TZ-45
From what I saw (here), it has a fire rate of around 750 rpm instead of 600, so it would actually fit well in Tier IV. -
MG 42
In place of the SIA Mod. 38. I know, itās kinda controversial as itās not Italian, but I donāt have any ideas what to put there. The Scotti Mod. 37 seems to be a good candidate, but I need more photos and sources on it. -
Lf Mod. 41
Simply as a Tier IV tech tree flamethrower. -
Pz.IV G
As with the StuG III and Pz III - Italians used these, so they fit here. Plus itās the only option if we want to avoid paper tanks. -
Fiat G.55
Itās already in the game, so it should be here. -
Lf Mod. 40
Itās meant to be the current Lf Mod. 35 squad, as I explained above.
Battle pass and event weapons:
-
FNAB-43
As Iāve said, I think it should be a collectible squad, returning on occasions like Enlisted birthday or some anniversaries regarding the Tunisia campaign. -
Cei-Rigotti
As I said above, it should be implemented in many different versions (magazine capacities, barrel lengths and so on) and in many different ways. And, since from what I know, all variant were reloaded by stripper clips and had a rather low fire rate, they could all be Tier IV despite being full auto. -
āPavesi SVTā
Could be either a battle pass weapon or for some sort of event squad. From what I researched, not a lot is known about this rifle, so it could be either Tier III or Tier IV weapon. -
Terni M91
Probably another Tier II rifle. I think it should be a battle pass weapon since we donāt seem to get event squads with lower tier weapons. -
SMGs
In general - the Sosso, the Pavesi-Revelli or the PM-470 could be cool additions to the battle pass or as event weapons.
Iād like to hear what you think about this, and if I got anything wrong, feel free to correct me:)
2 Likes
I agree with most of these improvements, save a few.
Theres an actual better Breda Mod.30, its the Mod.30 chambered in 7.35
Only one L3/CV33(38) and its a premium?!
You could add a CV38 with the twin MGs and the top mounted Brixia Mortar. It would be a total infantry killer, gun em down with the MGs if they take cover lob a mortar shell at em. You would have to make it as nimble as it was IRL tho, I cant find the video but theres old propaganda film that shows the CV33s amazing agility and speed.
The Pavesi M42 has to be implemented into the regular research line, its the only Italian Semi Auto chambered in 8mm Breda and IDK about putting the strongest rifle behind a paywall/timed event. I thought premium and event weapoms and vehicles were meant for rare/unique stuff, and although the pavesi is rare and unique it is too poweful to justify charging for it. Makes it pay to win in a way(Cƶnders MG)
The P.43 issue is a funny one. Its a double standard that Japan can have their paper tank but Italy cant becauseā¦? It feels like BS.
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So is this Italian campaign tree just going to be a mishmash of pre and post armistice Italian armies with a bunch of prototypes and German equipment as filler?
Are they going to have their own que in the matchmaker and fight only in Tunisia and Stalingrad?
How is this better then just adding more Italian weapons and squads to the German campaign?
Here, I differ a bit from my colleague @olek_z17. While Olek is more in favor of integrating German weapons and technology, I would give more preference to purely Italian production. Primarily to make the Italian tree as unique as possible. Also, to prevent critics from complaining that itās just a ācopy-pasteā tree. In my opinion, the Italian tree could be filled mostly with Italian weapons and technology, with German weapons potentially becoming premium items. At that point, itās a tree that really has something unique to offer.
This has been explained here many times:
-
They will fight only where they should, currently itās Stalingrad and Tunis. They WILL NOT fight in Normandy, Moscow, Berlin, and the Ardennes; simply put, they will not be where they never fought. This way, Italian squads will stop dressing up as Germans and will fight in their uniforms on their own battlefields. In the future, they may get additional battlefields, as mentioned in this article: Italian faction is needed! š®š¹.
-
Another thing. Matchmaking. Italians would, in most cases, currently in all cases, share the battlefield with the Germans. Italian and German players would form common teams for battles in Tunisia and Stalingrad. This would prevent the fragmentation of the community, as many fear.
How is this better? It is better in every respect. The current state only suits players who play the German faction solely as Germans. Italians are discriminated against in every way. They fight in battlefields where they have no business being. Outside of Tunis, they wear German uniforms. They have to use German equipment (MG Nest, HMG, anti-tank guns, etc.). In the tree, they donāt have their own weapons represented, such as mortars, flamethrowers, and on top of that, they mostly have to research German weapons they donāt even want to use, logically, when playing as Italians. Simply put, those who play as Germans have nothing to complain about; the current state is advantageous for them. For Italian players, being under the wing of Germany is totally disadvantageous and frustrating. More or less, we are not really playing as Italians, but as Germans with Italian weapons and, in better cases, with Italian voices.
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The war in North Africa and the Italian contribution to the eastern front were over by 1943, so all the mid-late war equipment and RSI squads are going to as anachronistic there as Italians in Normandy or Moscow.
It seems to me like turning Italy into a sub faction of Germany would be a better fix: They could flesh out the armament, add better uniform selection, reinstate the legacy Italian squads and add whateverās missing.
Adding a new faction means more grinding, more filler unlocks, and further dilutes matchmaking que.