Riders improvements - the final stone

[ErikaKalkbrenner]

disclaimer, it’s gonna be a lenghty one fellas. you have been warned.

so, it was confirmed that they will be working on the rider’s class
or are already working on it.

however, not much was said about it.

and, i made this post to bring one final awareness to the class in question. hoping that it’s not too late.

now, as people know me, i have been an advocate for riders.
i think they are one of the best class when it comes to fun.
which it’s funny because when first released, i was opposed to their introduction.
up until i actually tried them. and i had much fun since trying them.

nothing beats an adrenaline rush by using this thing.
that is, for me.

an excellent tool for getting ahead of the enemies in certain locations and/or place rallies, great at covering allied vehicles, great for tank hunting, secure landing zones of paratroopers while they descent, and above all, a solid machinegun nest on wheels with no overheat.

rider class has alot of potential to be some sort of APC squad but for offensive capabilities and / or logistic capabilities. ( of course, without the rally points abilities )

what i mean by this, is that it could become the perfect class to supply ammunition or medkits items on the battlefield. or become some sort of a response team, cover friendly tanks, or harass from the flanks enemy infantry.

but before i’ll go deeper in that, i’d like to cover a few things.
there are several “issues” that hinder it’s performance ( and no, i’ll say it right here, and right now. the bike is not hard to drive, and the bike it self does not have cross capabilities issue. because if you find those to be an issue, A, use the actual rider as a driver. and B, upgrade the bike already. if you do those things, it will become much easier to master if you can’t be bothered to learn " it’s pattern ". )

and;

general improvements needed

i did cover them in one of my previous posts, and i’ll do it again:

@ErikaKalkbrenner

let the driver be able to use sidearms when stationary

perhaps at the cost of needing an animation to get in, and out / drawn out the weapon. so, when the driver is in that state, he cannot drive but he can defend him self. opposed as having to switch to the gunner seat

self explanatory, but it would increase the survivability and dead angles of the main gunner.

as it can be a bit clunky when operating in close quarters
( which sure, i’d argue if you put your self in that position, it can be considered sort of your fault. but we could improve that aspect to at least sort of improve cqc capabilities )

@ErikaKalkbrenner

if the driver is absent ( be it because it’s dead or simply he isn’t on the bike ) the engine shouldn’t be running even if the gunner is on the bike

okey, this one is a bit… hard for me to explain, but what i currently don’t like is that, if i tell my ai to wait on the bike, even if he is the driver or gunner, the engine will shut off ( which it’s correct. it conceil your location ) but as soon players hops in alone in the driver or the gunner, the bike will start emitting noises. despite being driverless. ( i hope it makes sense )

i think one of the biggest strength that the bike could have had,
was the element of concealment and striking from the shadows.
firing when the enemies expect it the least.

but it’s kinda difficult to do it since the bike is always running.
of which, it doesn’t make much sense because if i leave the bike, and order my bots to stay inside the bike, no matter if he is the driver or gunner, the bike will make no sounds.
but as soon as i enter alone in the machinegunner seat, the engine will be running no matter what.

and i think it would be cool if with a button ( at the expense of needing an animation or whatever ) to turn off and on the bike. sort of a realistic thing.

@ErikaKalkbrenner

let players be able to roll / push bikes if they are flipped

countless time i find my self in tunisia or the pacific flipping my bike because of some rock ( yes, i am a bad driver, i’ll be the first one to admit it ) but then i lose my bike for the rest of the game because i can’t move it or flip it.
which the boats do have this feature:

would be great to have it for bikes too

it happens rarely/often for some people,
and given that the strength of the squad is the bike it self ( for now ), it would be greatly appreciated if we could push and unflip the bike. so that people can still use it instead of being forced to ditch it because they cannot do anything once flipped.

@ErikaKalkbrenner

make Bikes less “twitchy”

what i’m talking about, it’s that when you use the bike, they tend to be twitchy and not very stable.they bounce all over the place despite not moving at all.

as briefly explained, similar to halftracks, they bounce for no reason left and right making the aiming and firing slightly challenging.

@ErikaKalkbrenner

let players be able to customiza bikes with camouflage coloration and decals

( for more info and details, check this post: Make Bikes Customizable )

we do know APC will be customizable, but there were no mentions about bikes.
at the same time, it would be great to edit the textures and remove the DAK insignas:

because currently, it only makes sense to have those bikes in tunisia ( where originally were created and designed ) or italy. but, not all br have tunisia, and italy front doesn’t exist.

hence, it would be great to get an option to remove the decals of the dak. and let the players decide to have a cleaner version to put decals on it and customize it. along side changing the paint job because you do stick out like a sore thumb in normandy-berlin, or any winter map.

@ErikaKalkbrenner

let the radio operator be able to call in smoke and perhaps bombers

due to being somewhat of a fragile class, would be great if the radioman could ask for smoke or bombers to aid as a support role the team rather than being just a funny bike or vehicle with an mg.

and those were the fixes and various changes…

Reduce the squad grind

for some reason, despite doing extremely good with bikes ( raking up kills up to 60/70, placing rallies, destroying tanks etc ) it definitely took me more time and matches than other squads to fully grind.

Create new squads of type rider II & III

it may sound controversial, but bear with me for a moment.

the idea behind, is to have more options in terms of vehicles.

so that, rider I will use bikes and jeeps.

rider II will use logistical vehicles

and rider III will use weaponized armored cars / AA.

now, onto

general additions:

should have gone without saying, and i’m probably sure devs are already working on those, but

add rider class for japan and ussr

the Depnar M72 and the type 97 sidecar

add more type of bikes:

Examples

• add 3 seat bikes for free to players too

( perhaps, deweaponized variants as a trade off ? )

mg 42 bike:

kettenkrad:

& non-side car bikes:

BSA M20 ( brit )

mono hardley devison 1942

BMW

italian bike

and you get the jest of it.

more for choices available.

and now, we’ll get to the main part, or rather, what many people would like:

add weaponized and non bike vehicles to the rider class

what many have issues with the rider class, is that it doesn’t have many troopers. and are generally fragile.
i don’t mind the class being fragile, however i would like to improve the rider class to become a light motorized infantry.

so, as i suggested in my previous post:

@ErikaKalkbrenner

improve rider class and add the ability to add more soldiers, while giving them new vehicles

what i mean by this, is that i think riders can be useful and different from APCs.
by making them able to have armored scout cars and what not.
to be some sort of fast response team while not " stealing " APC job ( or the other way around )

and i truly believe this class could shine with the introduction of new vehicles just to give an idea and make this class slighlty more interesting.

and ideally, no more than 5/6 soldiers

Examples of vehicles

• weaponized kubelwagen
  
• Sd.Kfz.263 6-Rad rider assault vehicle
  
• Sd.Kfz.231 8-Rad

• Sd.Kfz.247 Ausf.B 4-wheeled APC
  

sdkfz 222 light tank / AA

type 92 rider weaponized car

• sas weaponized willy jeep with the Vickers ‘K’ gun
  
• weaponized willy jeep with 30 cal
  

wiesel M29 APC with 30 cal

m3 scout car

Ba 64

weaponized Gaz 64

boat car

schwimmwagen

etc, just a few examples.
so yeah, generally, being able to use cars, armored cars, and bikes.

and lastly, for this section,

add gold order vehicles for riders

in 2 years, since riders were added, not a single gold order bike has been introduced. which would have aided many people’s grind.

so in the future, it would be great to get bikes ( and any other vehicle that will be included to the riders ) with camouflages, markings, insignias or anything really. just like tanks.

i was conflicted about the following:

Logistic & AA purposes

this, is perhaps more of a brain storming idea.

because i’m unsure if those should be added.

but, the idea behind, would be to allow rider class to bring vehicles with specialization.
as mentioned at the beginning.

for example, being able to bring a medical truck where it will refills medics syringes and players mekdits if they interact with it, or ammo trucks ( that works similar to ammo boxes, but they can move and have more uses before getting depleted ).

or vehicles that can even refill engineers resources ( mostly for PVEs rather than PVPs. i’ll admit. although, it may have it’s uses there as well )

have a passive income during the battle and aid the team.
and at the same time, generally being able to move around support vehicle. instead of being a static ammunition / medical crate.

examples

and / or additionally, being able to use AA vehicles without taking tank slots, but it’s own dedicated slots.

it could be both interesting, or a pain in the to deal with.

i’ll leave that for the community or developers.

AA vehicles

T17E

Staghound AA

type 94 AA

Sdkfz 6 flak 37

generally being open top.

so that can be dealth with easily, but still have good weapons to defend against Airplanes.

but again, not sure. just few ideas to make the rider class very useful and an a valid option for those who seeks alternatives.

and that is all.
thanks for listening to me.

[Myrm1don]

Instead of AA I had wondered about Armed jeeps and such. so still small crew

but yeah. I like your style

[ErikaKalkbrenner]

@Myrm1don

Armed jeeps and such. so still small crew

@ErikaKalkbrenner

add non bike vehicles to riders

what many have issues with the rider class, is that it doesn’t have many troopers. and are generally fragile.
i don’t mind the class being fragile, however i would like to improve the rider class to become a light motorized infantry.

so, as i suggested in my previous post:

@ErikaKalkbrenner

improve rider class and add the ability to add more soldiers, while giving them new vehicles

what i mean by this, is that i think riders can be useful and different from APCs.
by making them able to have armored scout cars and what not.
to be some sort of fast response team while not " stealing " APC job ( or the other way around )

and i truly believe this class could shine with the introduction of new vehicles just to give an idea and make this class slighlty more interesting.

and ideally, no more than 5/6 soldiers

Examples of vehicles

• weaponized kubelwagen
  
• Sd.Kfz.263 6-Rad rider assault vehicle
  
• Sd.Kfz.231 8-Rad

• Sd.Kfz.247 Ausf.B 4-wheeled APC
  

sdkfz 222 light tank / AA

type 92 rider weaponized car

• sas weaponized willy jeep with the Vickers ‘K’ gun
  
• weaponized willy jeep with 30 cal
  

wiesel M29 APC with 30 cal

m3 scout car

Ba 64

weaponized Gaz 64

boat car

schwimmwagen

etc, just a few examples.
so yeah, generally, being able to use cars, armored cars, and bikes.

you know… if y’all wouldn’t skim right through …

guess i’ll change the title. and add few pew pew cars

[Vergeltungzwaffe]

Instead of setting up a general/officer class they could add an officer to the rider class wich provieds the possibility to boost nearby soldiers in every kind of speed (realod/aim/run)

[Myrm1don]

@ErikaKalkbrenner

and add few pew pew cars

pew pew cars works

[ErikaKalkbrenner]

personally, i’d be against that.

because usually riders don’t often stay around capture points or directly inside.
and that wouldn’t be the main role of the riders.

however, in combination with logistic vehicles, and reworked squad composition, i think it could work.

( admitting that the new class will be an officer. personally, i don’t think so. abilities aren’t really enlisted style ).

[CapitanRastrero]

@ErikaKalkbrenner

Reduce the squad grind

for some reason, despite doing extremely good with bikes ( raking up kills up to 60/70, placing rallies, destroying tanks etc ) it definitely took me more time and matches than other squads to fully grind.

I agree, I built my Rider squad to be a tank hunter team and it works grest! You can sneak arpund the map and ambush tanks from the sides. BUT, in order to level my squad to get the AT Soldier it took me WAY MORE time and effort than any other type of squad.

So I can see why people think the riders are useless. But when you level the squad up the emergent game play really opens up.

[VoyoMayPL]

Addition of srummel and bren carier was the ideal occasion to implement this.
Sadly devs decided to make them APCs even though they are about as much of a troop transport as M16 (that is classified as a tank). Because consistency is for weaklings.

[Dregomz]

I just want them as your personal squad spawn point that would only let you spawn on your vehicle after dying with your rider squad. It would fit nicely between buildable rallies and APCs. Engine could be always turned on so enemies would be able to detect and neutralize them like rally points (it’s a shame that APCs are so silent like a ninja)

[Darth_Sidi0us]

I had two forum posts about riders and how to improve them, that overlap with your suggestion.

Sadly, i’m too lazy to translate them, lmao, so you can just go to CIS forum and use google translator, idk, if you are interested:

Medic II (Ambulance cars mechanics variants):

Медик II

APCs Quality of Life:

Пара Quality of Life фич грузовикам-респам

[ErikaKalkbrenner]

of course!

always glad to hop on the other side from time to time.

and, receiving visits from fellow forum dwellers of the RU side.

[Naohmcete]

Japs can have the kurogane ones or use the trucks from war thunder

[OliveDrab1967]

I would love to see all of these vehicles in enlisted some day, but I don’t think the devs will ever do it, because it’s to difficult for them to change or add new scripting into the game for all of them. That and I might be to much of a literal “gamble” for them… I think that they’ll probably just keep on making the changes that they want to make, and only listen to “selective” members of the community.

[OliveDrab1967]

I feel they only make changes that people ask for, like maybe 31 percent of the time.

[OliveDrab1967]

One example of what I’m talking about, is the post I made the other day about the “AI Gunner” for the M8 Greyhound squad. Because it was identified as a “bug”, it was removed from the game entirely. Because Why try to fix something, when it’s so much cheaper and easier to just scrap it…

[ErikaKalkbrenner]

@OliveDrab1967

I would love to see all of these vehicles in enlisted some day, but I don’t think the devs will ever do it, because it’s to difficult for them to change or add new scripting into the game for all of them.

except, the bikes were brand new. of which, no one really asked for. but, were still implemented despite not being present in war thunder.

however, people started to appreciated them ( unlike flame plane tanks that no one asked for, and to this day, no one really use them, or likes them . the only exception, were flame tanks. which are gimmicky, but brand new and never seen before in war thunder)

the bren carrier was new. all the trucks for all factions were brand new.
and even the german sdkfz 7.

so, what you just said, it’s untrue.

@OliveDrab1967

That and I might be to much of a literal “gamble” for them… I think that they’ll probably just keep on making the changes that they want to make, and only listen to “selective” members of the community.

not at all.

it depends if devs want it, and thinks can do it.

@OliveDrab1967

One example of what I’m talking about, is the post I made the other day about the “AI Gunner” for the M8 Greyhound squad. Because it was identified as a “bug”, it was removed from the game entirely. Because Why try to fix something, when it’s so much cheaper and easier to just scrap it…

no.
that’s not how it went.

because that was a legit bug.

all they did, was to change isHoldGunModeAllowed:b=yes from yes, to no.
which it’s a parameter that is used over seats:

  "vehicle_seats__seats:shared:array"{

    "seats:object"{
      name:t="driver"
      locName:t="vehicle_seats/driver"
      seatOwnsEntityControl:b=yes
      attachNode:t="driver"
      ignoreAttachNodeRotation:b=yes
      attachTm:m=[[1.0, 0.0, 0.0] [0.0, 1.0, 0.0] [0.0, 0.0, 1.0] [-0.0, 0.2, -0.13]]
      seatComponent:t="isDriver"
      nextSeat:t="main_gunner"
      shouldHideOwner:b=yes
      receiveDamageFromDMPart:t="driver"
      cameraNodeName:t="bone_camera_driver"
      cockpitTemplate:t="us_halftrack_m13_driver_cockpit"
    }

    "seats:object"{
      name:t="commander"
      locName:t="vehicle_seats/commander"
      locName:t="vehicle_seats/commander"
      attachNode:t="commander"
      shouldHideOwner:b=yes
      ignoreAttachNodeRotation:b=yes
      attachTm:m=[[1.0, 0.0, 0.0] [0.0, 1.0, 0.0] [0.0, 0.0, 1.0] [-0.0, 0.2, 0.11]]
      cockpitTemplate:t="us_halftrack_m13_driver_cockpit"
      cameraType:t="commander"
      seatComponent:t="isDriver"
      receiveDamageFromDMPart:t="commander"

      "turretNames:array"{
        turretNames:t="turret_02"
      }
    }

    "seats:object"{
      name:t="passenger"
      attachNode:t="root"
      locName:t="vehicle_seats/shooter"
      ignoreAttachNodeRotation:b=yes
      attachTm:m=[[-5.66213e-08, 0.0, -0.949948] [0.0, 0.949743, 0.0] [0.949899, 0.0, -5.66184e-08] [-1.05, 0.9, -0.56]]
      seatComponent:t="isPassenger"
      shouldHideOwner:b=no
      cameraNodeName:t="bone_camera_driver"
      canPlaceManually:b=yes
      seatEnum:t="right_seat"
      seatAnimUpper:t="drive_passenger"
      seatFireReadyAnimUpper:t="upper_fireready"
      seatFireReadyAnimLower:t="lower_fireready"
      holdingGunPassengerVertLookLimit:p2=-5.0, 85.0
    }

    "seats:object"{
      name:t="passenger"
      attachNode:t="root"
      locName:t="vehicle_seats/shooter"
      ignoreAttachNodeRotation:b=yes
      attachTm:m=[[1.90355e-06, -0.258413, 0.964424] [-1.43542e-06, 0.962215, 0.257821] [-0.998741, -1.87868e-06, 1.46732e-06] [-1.05, 0.9, 0.56]]
      seatComponent:t="isPassenger"
      isHoldGunModeAllowed:b=yes
      canPlaceManually:b=yes
      cameraNodeName:t="bone_camera_driver"
      seatAnimUpper:t="drive_passenger"
      seatFireReadyAnimUpper:t="upper_fireready"
      seatFireReadyAnimLower:t="lower_fireready"
      seatEnum:t="left_seat"
      shouldHideOwner:b=no
      holdingGunPassengerVertLookLimit:p2=-5.0, 85.0
    }
  }

as the AI were literally firing through the metal of the vehicle.

which i dont think i need to tell you that it’s wrong and borderline insane.

if you want to argue about bow machineguns for tanks, i’m afraid this is the wrong thread for it.

weird comparison though.

[OliveDrab1967]

Sure, it might seem weird to you, but everyone is entitled to their own opinions. My biggest problem with this game right now, is just 99% of peoples ideas being shot down, or something being removed (weather a legitimate bug or not) because less than a dozen play testers say that it’s a bug, or it’s their “opinion” that something is a bug. For example: vehicle ascetics are a big deal to me, and the recent “layer fix” makes me not even care about the game anymore right now.

[OliveDrab1967]

I also feel like new “scripting” is hard for the devs of this game, because if it was so easy for them, they would have added all of this stuff by now.

[OliveDrab1967]

I would personally rather see more gun jeeps, or armored cars than motorcycles, because I don’t think motorcycles were used all that much in WW2, except for maybe the first couple of years of the war. They should at least add one for every faction though I agree.

[Knyaz_Iaroslav]

@ErikaKalkbrenner

Depnar

Maybe dnepar? Which is more right to write as dnepr. But whatever.

@ErikaKalkbrenner

Reduce the squad grind

for some reason, despite doing extremely good with bikes ( raking up kills up to 60/70, placing rallies, destroying tanks etc ) it definitely took me more time and matches than other squads to fully grind.

The reason is that bikes used to open somewhere at level 20. And somewhere from level 20, all new squads required about 20 thousand exp per level. That is, they didn’t bother at all.

@ErikaKalkbrenner

add weaponized and non bike vehicles to the rider class

No.

Also this squad cost a typical 12-14 tickets for respawn(like any other). Which is a real dumb in case of such small squad.