Engineer SQUADS (1& 2): Unique Defensive/ Offensive Structures

[GuardianReaper0]

Please be courteous and actually read the suggestion, I know I post about engineers a lot, but I’ve taken the time to listen to other feedback and suggestions to make this new refined list.

Currently, I don’t think that the engineer squads themselves have enough to make them feel “unique”, in a way that makes anyone other than the most die-hard engineer mains actually use them. I think this list should definitely help with that.

Some of these suggestions would be in ADDITION to current options, while others may REPLACE some current options. Each will be noted accordingly.

These suggestions would work best if structures were able to be stacked a maximum of 2 tall, allowing for things like double stacked sandbag walls and such.
Additionally, sandbag structures would be immune to fragmentation damage, but still take damage and be destroyed by direct blasts.

Engineer 1 squad:

First off, let me preface this squad by saying that EVERYONE should have access to this squad, and the suggestions for it are geared more around early game defensive play as well as offense utility that could be extremely helpful.

• Low Cover Sandbag Circle, this structure would be limited to 3. Other structures can be stacked on top of it. Its height is 2 sandbags (not walls) tall.

• • While at first glance this may seem less than useful, take moment to consider that trenching in combination with this would be quite useful. Especially if it were made to where you could square out the sides of the hole when digging within one of these.
• • It would be extremely useful for giving some extra cover to foxholes, become an excellent position to build other structures such as rally points, AA, or even support a mortar crew with more cover.
• • It would be immune to fragmentation damage and only really damaged by direct blasts. It raises the edges of the hole enough to properly protect those inside of it.
• • • However, it comes at the cost of replacing the AT field gun. Note: The AT field gun is an option as a unique structure for the AT squad, so it will still be accessible there.

• Windowed Sandbag Wall, this structure would share the limit of your standard sandbag walls. The opening is in the middle of the structure, so if you build it in a window or on top of another sandbag wall, its easy to shoot from.

• • This would be available to BOTH Engineer 1 & 2 squads.
• • This would be able to also be stacked on the “Low Cover Sandbag Circle”, enabling attackers as well as defenders to create fortified positions to shoot from as well!
• • • This structure would be added to the construction wheel, and not take anything away.

• Trench Covers, we already see these within the game here and there, but all too often they are few and far between, and tanks could really use a couple extra to get across. Plus they make good shelter for the trenches.
• • Limit is shared with Czech Hedgehogs.
• • • This structure would be added to the construction wheel, not take anything away.

Engineer 2 Squad:

The Engineer 2 Squad is more heavily based around fortification, and stronger durability structures. As it will likely only be used by those that actually enjoy setting up strong defenses and playing support.

• Concrete Filled Sandbag Walls, for when the shelling is just simply too much for standard sandbag walls.

• • They would have greater health than the standard variants. Additionally being immune to large caliber ballistic ammunition (in other words, HMGs would not break them).
• • Limit is shared with standard sandbag walls. In addition, if normal sandbag walls of yours exist (not including windowed sandbag walls), they are broken if the limit would otherwise be exceeded. Similar to how ammo boxes are broken when you try to place more than 3.
• • These would take about twice as long to build as the standard sandbag wall.
• • • These would take the place of standard sandbag walls on the construction wheel.

• Reinforced Barbwire, essentially it would have a metal frame rather than a wooden one and be a little bit more difficult to destroy.

• • By giving them a bit more health, they would be able to survive in the open ground areas, this however comes at a cost. Players will no longer be able to place this item near doorways (for balance reasons).
• • The time to build it would be about double what the standard barbwire is, and would share the limit with standard barbwire.
• • • This item would REPLACE the standard barbwire on the construction wheel.

• Dragon’s Teeth,this is one that has been asked for numerous times by the community, for various reasons.

• • It would share the limit with Czech Hedgehogs.
• • One of the downfalls of Czech Hedgehogs is they can be destroyed by cratering below them with explosives of various kinds. With Dragon’s Teeth, that would no longer be an issue/ option.
• • Cannot be placed indoors. Though requires an engineer to break them down/ destroy them.
• • • These would take the place of Czech Hedgehogs on the construction wheel.

• Autocannons, essentially the AA’s that we currently have were historically used against ground units as well, often times being mounted on a similar wheel base what the AT field guns in the game are.

• • Make them similar to how the AT field guns are in terms of being mobile. They can angle down and hit ground targets as well as angle up and shoot at aircraft, HOWEVER they will not be able to turn 360 degrees.
• • Give them the option of both HE and AP shells, just like how the AT field guns do. This allows them to hit multiple types of targets.
• • Limit is 1
• • • This will REPLACE the AT field gun on the construction wheel. As mentioned before, those will still be buildable through the AT squad.

• Flak Cannons, we see this featured in some of the maps, but they are inoperable. With how the damage of AA weaponry is kind of up in the air (pun intended) Flak weaponry could be an excellent way to help ground troops deal with aircraft.

• • It would be a stationary turret, capable of rotating 360 degrees.
• • It would not be able to angle down, much like how the standard AA is currently. Flying low would still be effective to avoid their fire.
• • Their shells would detonate when passing close to an enemy aircraft (for ease of use), causing heavy fragmentation damage.
• • They would be effective at much longer ranges than the standard AA, making them effective at dealing not just with enemy controlled aircraft, but also the bomber raids called in by Radio Operators.
• • • They would require twice as long to build as standard AA.
• • • They would need multiple crew members (like how tanks need additional bot crew members) to be used effectively.
• • • They would take the place of standard AA on the construction wheel and be limited to 1.

I realize its a long list, but these changes could help to shape the game considerably for the better. Making engineer squads a lot more useful and bringing some more options in terms of tactics to the game.

@Shiivex and @EdVanSchleck , I value your guys’ opinions on things like these. What do you think?

PLEASE NOTE:

The heavier versions of structures would have an increased cost and time to build.
Given that they are built with an ENGINEER squad that has up to 6 engineers on it, this shouldn’t be an issue.

For those that are concerned it would be “too easy to spam structures”, it would still require more to build them in the first place, so after that it will be up to the opposing team to adapt and overcome with their tactics. Simply spamming grenades and such would no longer be as powerful of a tactic.

[VoyoMayPL]

@GuardianReaper0

Currently, I don’t think that the engineer squads themselves have enough to make them feel “unique”, in a way that makes anyone other than the most die-hard engineer mains actually use them

Non of level 1+ squads brings anything unique to the game. Just more grind and more perk points. (Engi II gets MG nest but almost everybody has been asking to give it also to engi I so I don’t count it.)
So I don’t see why this is a problem.

As for constructions, why not.

[ErikaKalkbrenner]

you had me with the 88.
even though, i believe should be locked behind engy type III.

but… types will disappear. so i don’t know what will happen or how it will work

anyway i believe we generally need new anti tank guns.

although, sure, i believe new shapes of sandbags are also welcome.
and it’s not like we miss models or something:

but, shouldn’t be buildable inside houses. otherwise you’ll be able to block entrances for bots. not ideal.

beside, the reinforced barbwire and dragons dent i feel like it’s tad too much.

[EdVanSchleck]

Hi, how are you doing?
Thanks for the tag. I will read your suggestion, tomorrow morning tops. But at first glance: nice!

[GuardianReaper0]

@VoyoMayPL

Non of level 1+ squads brings anything unique to the game.

The reasons why I differentiated between the two:

1. Some players have been asking for “assault engineers”, basically engineers more suited to offense than to defense.
   I do NOT think that those kind of capabilities should be accessible through just any squad with an engineer, due to balance reasons. Instead, having them through the first set of engineers seems like the best route.

2. Not currently do any of the 1s get something special, but my hope is that in the long run, each group with a special fortification will get a different version. Like the AT squads for instance:
   The AT Squad 1 would have the standard field gun, while the AT Squad 2 would get a larger one!

[Naohmcete]

Imagine adding to the engineering squad an engineer capable of setting up a field hospital that cannot be placed inside buildings but that in return allows the health of everyone inside it to slowly regenerate and that is the area to be able to obtain more syringes and new boxes of first aid kits for the doctors and look for backward compatibility an extra box so that the engineers could regenerate their used resources

[GuardianReaper0]

@ErikaKalkbrenner

you had me with the 88.
even though, i believe should be locked behind engy type III.

I lumped it in with the Engineer 2s due to them being more for the heavy fortification stuff. Plus not all campaigns (or nations after the merge) have access to Engineer 3s.

@ErikaKalkbrenner

but, shouldn’t be buildable inside houses. otherwise you’ll be able to block entrances for bots. not ideal.

Yes and No. In the WINDOWS I think they are necessary.

As far as DOORWAYS are concerned, I think they need to make the AI smart enough to identify that there is a breakable structure impeding their path, and have them armed with TNT, so they can blast it if need be!
As it is currently, there are often far too many entry points that its incredibly difficult to actually lock down an objective.

@ErikaKalkbrenner

beside, the reinforced barbwire and dragons dent i feel like it’s tad too much.

Let me ask you this:
How often do you see barbwire used OUTSIDE of an objective, such as on the approach/ across open fields?
How long does that hold up against artillery and other explosions?

How often do you see Czech Hedgehogs used outside of buildings?

[GuardianReaper0]

I for one like the idea, but think it would be much better suited to be put on the medic squad as a unique structure that they can build.
Not as something for the ENGINEER Squads to build.

[ErikaKalkbrenner]

@GuardianReaper0

I lumped it in with the Engineer 2s due to them being more for the heavy fortification stuff. Plus not all campaigns (or nations after the merge) have access to Engineer 3s.

but with the merge, there won’t be any type 2s 3s and what not.

so… how will that actually work?

@GuardianReaper0

As far as DOORWAYS are concerned, I think they need to make the AI smart enough to identify that there is a breakable structure impeding their path, and have them armed with TNT, so they can blast it if need be!

you are kinda too much confident about that.

they… actually don’t.

and i wouldn’t trust them to not blow them selves up like they do when you order them to destroy a tank

@GuardianReaper0

Let me ask you this:
How often do you see barbwire used OUTSIDE of an objective, such as on the approach/ across open fields?

way too much for my liking.

so i think they are kinda fine as they are

@GuardianReaper0

How long does that hold up against artillery and other explosions?

the ones inside houses and what not, more than i like them to.

but fair play to those who placed them i guess.

which, you can easely destroy them as replace them with an engineer.

that’s the play.

@GuardianReaper0

How often do you see Czech Hedgehogs used outside of buildings?

not really that much because it takes ages to set them up, and you can cover only so little before getting shot / running out of czech / resourches and so on.

[GuardianReaper0]

@ErikaKalkbrenner

but with the merge, there won’t be any type 2s 3s and what not.

so… how will that actually work?

That wasn’t my understanding of it. They haven’t given us as much information about how that is going to work, so once I have that info, I can hopefully work my idea around it.

@ErikaKalkbrenner

and i wouldn’t trust them to not blow them selves up like they do when you order them to destroy a tank

When it comes to friendly fire with TNT, it only kills the character that set it. So one AI dying I’m not really too concerned about. In case you haven’t noticed, they tend to die in droves anyways.

@ErikaKalkbrenner

you are kinda too much confident about that.

they… actually don’t.

I get that AI aren’t the best at pathfinding, which needs to be addressed in a whole host of ways, but the primary balance shouldn’t be made for “if you are playing against AI”. This just means that players are the primary ones that need to be kept out, and if you are just going against AI and no players, that comes down to a matchmaking issue, as a player would be able to go through it in an intelligent manner, or flank even.

@ErikaKalkbrenner

way too much for my liking.

so i think they are kinda fine as they are

@ErikaKalkbrenner

the ones inside houses and what not, more than i like them to.

Interesting. In my experience, and the experience of those I talked to in order to make this post as accurate and as balanced as I can, that is not the case at all!

My question now is if it was the barbwire that was placed by PLAYERS or the ones that are built into the map by default? Which campaign do you frequent?

[ParaDivision]

placement restrictions are horrible game design, buildable structures need to give maximum freedom so players can create interesting, new strategies.

strong structures likes concrete sandbags, stronger barbed wire etc. can be balanced by making them cost more ressources and time to build.

[Erennin]

Great work mate.

Shame most matches dont allow time for much. But still. Love it in general.

We should be careful, with the weapons we give engeneers but to start with, id like to be able to build rally points in digged up trenches.

[GuardianReaper0]

I did suggest longer build times, but it appears i forgot to mention increased costs.

The placement restrictions are to prevent exploitable situations and better the balance.

[ErikaKalkbrenner]

@GuardianReaper0

That wasn’t my understanding of it. They haven’t given us as much information about how that is going to work, so once I have that info, I can hopefully work my idea around it.

true, but it’s kinda already enough to imply that those won’t be a thing anymore:

@Keofox

ADVANCED SOLDIER UPGRADES

In the new Enlisted, we will make it easier to level up individual soldiers, and the process of ability selection more interesting. We will eliminate one of the steps in soldiers’ progression which is unclear for many players, remove the ability number limit and remove randomness from the mechanism of new abilities selection.

The first change is the shift from the sequence of “Increase the maximum rank of soldiers → use orders to rank up → earn experience to level up” to a simpler scheme, in which Personnel upgrades will immediately unlock the maximum level of the soldier (star), bypassing the unlocking of each soldier’s* maximum rank for bronze orders.

Soldier levels, in turn, instead of opening new slots for abilities, will increase the basic characteristics of the soldier - what the rank used to be responsible for.

And the ranks of soldiers themselves will no longer exist. Neither will the trouble of understanding this system by some commanders.

@GuardianReaper0

When it comes to friendly fire with TNT, it only kills the character that set it. So one AI dying I’m not really too concerned about. In case you haven’t noticed, they tend to die in droves anyways.

#AilivesMatter

on a serious note, if you have a small squad, it does matter.

i suppose a matter of opinions.

@GuardianReaper0

I get that AI aren’t the best at pathfinding, which needs to be addressed in a whole host of ways, but the primary balance shouldn’t be made for “if you are playing against AI”. This just means that players are the primary ones that need to be kept out, and if you are just going against AI and no players, that comes down to a matchmaking issue, as a player would be able to go through it in an intelligent manner, or flank even.

of course not.

but when it comes to deserters and what not…

it does affect. and … somewhat comes down to just that.

@GuardianReaper0

Interesting. In my experience, and the experience of those I talked to in order to make this post as accurate and as balanced as I can, that is not the case at all!

maybe they don’t play the same game i play

@GuardianReaper0

My question now is if it was the barbwire that was placed by PLAYERS or the ones that are built into the map by default? Which campaign do you frequent?

you’re… joking right?

what would barbwire already placed in the map has anything to do with engineers?

btw, you can check my replays in tunisia, stalingrad and occcasionally berlin.

i find barbwire all the time that i have to personally break everytime.

not partciular against it, but this suggestion sounds like a fever dream of combat engineers.

making effectively everything around engineers to build and dismantle.

not much of a fan of that. i’ll tell you that much.
( yes. i have read the suggestion, and it isn’t entirely true. but you get the point )

[GuardianReaper0]

@Erennin

Shame most matches dont allow time for much.

My HOPE is that down the line that will change. I’ve submitted other suggestions that could help with that.

@Erennin

We should be careful, with the weapons we give engeneers but to start with

To what are you referring?

[GuardianReaper0]

@ErikaKalkbrenner

Soldier levels, in turn, instead of opening new slots for abilities, will increase the basic characteristics of the soldier - what the rank used to be responsible for.

And the ranks of soldiers themselves will no longer exist. Neither will the trouble of understanding this system by some commanders.

I’m curious to see how this actually works out.
To me it sounds like the different TYPES Engineer 1s, Engineer 2s, etc. will still be a thing. However they are instead going to work on the perk system for each.
Hey I could be wrong, but we’ll see when (if) it ever comes out.

@ErikaKalkbrenner

but when it comes to deserters and what not…

it does affect. and … somewhat comes down to just that.

The desertion factor is something that needs to be dealt with, I’ve said that before on other posts, but again, shouldn’t be the main source for balancing.

PVP is where the balancing needs to be, not PVE.

@ErikaKalkbrenner

you’re… joking right?

what would barbwire already placed in the map has anything to do with engineers?

Some campaigns such as Normandy, Pacific, and Berlin have a lot of barbwire built into some of the maps. Players often get tangled up on it and get frustrated because it can be kind of difficult to get rid of. That’s why I ask.

OUR experience is that barbwire almost never survives for more than a minute when placed outside UNLESS you dig a trench for it. The artillery, aircraft bombs, tank shells, even grenades take it out quite rapidly. Which is what leads so many people to cluster it up in doorways.

[ErikaKalkbrenner]

@GuardianReaper0

I’m curious to see how this actually works out.
To me it sounds like the different TYPES Engineer 1s, Engineer 2s, etc. will still be a thing. However they are instead going to work on the perk system for each.
Hey I could be wrong, but we’ll see when (if) it ever comes out.

yeah… tipical DF move.

.>drops info
.>refuses to elaborate
.>leaves onto the next " make enlisted a better place " or right into another devblog.

gotta see what they will actually do.

because after all, they can and will change idea.

like, now that i think about it, despite that statement, you are right. type of engineers were on the spreadsheet so. maybe those will remain.

@GuardianReaper0

The desertion factor is something that needs to be dealt with, I’ve said that before on other posts, but again, shouldn’t be the main source for balancing.

PVP is where the balancing needs to be, not PVE.

but this game it’s also pve.

heck, i’d argue i’d be more interested in the latter. but that’s on me.

but as far as it goes for this conversation, your bots are made of AIs.

so… yeah… again, i’d argue they are not ideal for such a task.

and when you have to worry about setting / remove defenses getting dragged back by bots it’s horrible. even worse if they take panoramic route just to get shot because they do pathfinding without finding.

which… i’m afraid we’re going in circles. but i hope they will fix that first.

anyway.

@GuardianReaper0

Some campaigns such as Normandy, Pacific, and Berlin have a lot of barbwire built into some of the maps. Players often get tangled up on it and get frustrated because it can be kind of difficult to get rid of. That’s why I ask.

that is true.

normandy is kinda full. and both normandy and barlin have those annoying destroyed barbwire that deals damage.

but, no. i can recognize a placed barbwire and one already placed.

i wouldn’t say difficult to get rid of, but those plays somewhat already an important role for defenders.

which;

@GuardianReaper0

OUR experience is that barbwire almost never survives for more than a minute when placed outside UNLESS you dig a trench for it. The artillery, aircraft bombs, tank shells, even grenades take it out quite rapidly. Which is what leads so many people to cluster it up in doorways.

well yeah, they don’t last very long because it doesn’t take that long to set them up either.

it’s a fair play.

you destroy them easily as much as you can place them.

that’s my argument.

as after all, their role is to close the path of ais ( which not sure if that’s intentional, but it actually works ) slow down the attackers / defenders, and above all, deal some damage.

[ErikaKalkbrenner]

you see things that aren’t there " my friend ".

i have yet to see any whiners in this post.

so…

way to go ken… wayyyy to go.

[Naohmcete]

we are also missing “bunkers” If anyone is wondering about the “usefulness” of this mega wooden structure (because I am talking about the typical one that can be made with wood, sandbags, etc. and there are countless photos), it could be a refuge area that can only be placed in exteriors and that it is a bottleneck, it is worth mentioning that if YOU decide to have this inside the construction wheel you should eliminate some structures to be able to balance it but in return it is very resistant to explosions and is a perfect place to mount machine gun nests , cannons and even depending on the type of bunker, accommodate an AA

EDIT:
Adding Photos of different wood and sandbag bunkers for give ideas to the devs

[ErikaKalkbrenner]

anyway, apparently i have to specify because someone struggles to actually understand someone opinions but,

i’m not particularly against tougher defenses. heck, i’d like to have those for my pves.

it’s just that i don’t believe it should all be around and come down to engineer gameplay.

unless you are playing engy squad, there is somewhat of a scarcity of engineers roles in other classes. and if we consider especially with averange joes which, i’ll admit, for once, mr Para is right.

not many people dismante stuff or even have engineers to begin with in their squads…

which for me, it comes down to, having to do everything my self.

place a rally, get more engineers, use engineers to dismantle, and be left out to play engineers for other roles that will cover up 60% of the match.

if it makes sense what i’m trying to say lol.