Why are you adding M8A1 in the first place when I am originally talking about Chaffee. Don’t diverge the topic.
Sure, let’s compare. If you look at raw penetration number, it seems like it Chi Nu 2 is better. But you simply forget that Chi Nu 2 will face tank with heavier armor on BR3.
If M24 has M61 shell it will have the ability to pen any tank it will meet.
If the M24 is on Japan side it will not have the ability to pen the hull of M4A2 and T-34.
If we bring Chi Nu 2 to br2 it will have the penetration to pen any tank it will meet.
So you need a Chi Nu 2 on br2 Japan if you want to replicate what Chaffee can do on br2 US.
I don’t think 6.5s reload for M24 is enough to balance it if it is given M61 round.
Being able to just cripple/destroy the entire enemy tank with the first shot makes any follow up shot less important.
The 75mm HEAT will often need a second or a third shot since its post pen is often kinda bad or the 80mm just not enough to pen in the first place. So if the HEAT failed to kill/ cripple in the first shot the Chaffe will have 3 additional seconds to make the shot count. But in reverse the APHE rarely leaves the tank chance to recover.
And now you are just making shit up…
If you dont know shit then please just shut up before you stat claiming nonsence and hope it sticks.
M24
24 horizontal 4 vertical
P 4E
15 horizontal 4 vertical
P 3N
14 horizotal 4 vertical
In fact the chaffe has a faster horizontal turret than all but the AAs the AB 41 and the P 2c.
So nothing about your statement was even remotely correct.
As for vertical it has the exact same as basicly everyone else.
EDIT: Even for japan it isnt any better with the turrets rotation speed rangeing from 10 to 16,5 horizontal.
So in the end only the ta-se got a faster turret but that is AA
Wdym diverging topic i was literally talking about both M8A1 and M24 in the first place look up.
Alright this is fair.
That’s just preposterous. What, are we going to nerf T-28 to BR 3 now because it could pretty much one shot all the time against both german and japanese tanks on the same BR and penetrate even most of BR 3 tanks it would faces? It also reloads faster than M24 now isn’t it.
If you are only fighting tanks that is. Which is not in Enlisted. Not sure about you but i always run out of HE/HEAT shells first when i’m using tanks. The so called one shot APHE pales in comparison when one can be able to fire HE/HEAT twice as fast. It’s an advantage not even by small margin but a huuuge advantage and we all should know this by now. Except that M8A1/M24 can’t even able to that one shot APHE thing now can’t they.
This is the post that I was originally replying to, does it talk about M8A1?
No, it only talks about Chaffee, so why are you adding M8A1 when you are replying to me? Let’s just stop this M8A1 discussion and focus on M24.
67mm of pen can’t penetrate the 80mm hull armor of panzer 4 G, H, J and also the hull armor of Panzer 3N.
Name any tank M24 will meet with more than 100mm of armor?
This is ridiculous point as with your logic, BR 3 KV-1 with it’s APHEBC and early T-34 versions will struggle to penetrate Panzer 3 N/Panzer 4 H, J, G because the penetration value is sub 80mm and shouldn’t be dominating at BR 3 but in reality that can’t be further from the truth. Everyone and their mother knows to shoot turret when facing Panzer 3 and Panzer 4 thus killing any Panzer 3 and Panzer 4 is a piece of cake when driving KV-1. That applies to T-28 as well. It’s just that with T-28 you can’t afford getting hit back by them that’s it. Same goes for M24 as it also has paper armor.
And it feels like that you really are trying hard to undervalue the reload speed of the tank when in fact it’s one of the most important stats in the game. I’d say perhaps even more so than in Warthunder as this directly and heavily impacts the anti-infantry capability of vehicles.
Except the fight is not all about tank to tank fight. KV1 is largely immune to explosive pack.
It also has way larger tnt equivalent in its APHEBC than the tank it will meet.
Moreover I saw claims saying that the KV1’s frontal armor is bugged and blocking shell that it shouldn’t block.
If M24 get the M61 shell it could just fire basically anywhere at the front and still cause great damage.
76mm gun on USSR BR3 tank has even slower reload speed.
Also since you agree that armor penetration part, does that mean Chi Nu 2 can be move down to br2 because it has the same reload time as Chaffee?
Exactly. Then how does that a vehicle with 6.5 secs(This is one of the slowest reload speed out of all tanks with these kind of 75mm gun out there AFAIK) reload speed and paper armor would somehow breaks the balance if it gets AP shell with HE filler?
And how would that possibly becomes a problem for vehicle with paper armor and 6.5 reload speed when vehicles slinging 75mm HEAT/HE every 3.3 seconds sitting on the same BR? Also the “increased penetration of M61 will lolpen all german/japanese tanks” is hardly a sounding argument when almost all 1-3 BR german/japanese tanks are having below average, paper armor protection that any of BR 1 cannons already wouldn’t have any problem going thru frontally. At least some german BR 3 tanks like Flakbus with 88 and Sturmpanzer 2 do have an unparalleled firepower for their BR so there’s that.
Yea, thanks to it’s ridiculous armor and damage model rather than having a good gun which you trying to imply in here. Theoretically, you don’t want to fight Stug 3 G as KV-1 despite both tanks are on the same BR as you will struggle hard to penetrate it. And you were the one who thinks so highly of AP shells with HE fillers in that giving M61 to M24 would somehow breaks the balance. I brought T-28 as an example there because in your logic, T-28 should be BR 3 but we all know that shouldn’t be happening for obvious reasons. If M24 at least had the same 5 seconds reload speed as Sherman 75mm then i wouldn’t even asked for M61 in the first place. If it’s not that good at killing infantry compared to other vehicles on BR 2 and also with mediocre armor then at least it should not get solid AP shot as it’s only AP shell, that’s my take.
Not really? Same reason that i don’t want any of Panzer 4 with long 75mm gun down to BR 2. Would make those TD obsolete. But it’s true that in general, Japanese tanks are lacking in performance wise and theoretically wouldn’t cause much problem as it’s 6.5 seconds reload speed and mediocre flat 50mm frontal armor with no turret coaxial MG and the MG itself mounted on the hull and roof are also pretty bad one as well.
It can pen while having good post pen damage, you can’t use those weak br1 cannon as an example.
Go and suggest that then.
Weird point. Why should balance care about something being obsolete? US currently don’t have br2 turretless td like Germany and Japan. But let’s say if dev also add a turretless td like M3 GMC into the br2 US, does that make your point no longer valid? Since M24 will make such td obsolete.
The Chaffee is hidden after store removal, and the M8A1 is still premium. These two turreted US BR2 tanks with M61 are locked behind paywalls, out of reach for most players.
The M3 Grant is the key alternative. Proposals for British 57mm APHE shells are still stagnant. This thinly-armoured, hull-gun tank known as the “Coffin for Seven Brothers” is the most deserving candidate for the M61 ammunition.
The Chi-Nu II is not suitable for BR2, but I believe the base Chi-Nu would fit BR2 perfectly.
Looking at armor and shell interaction, it sits at 3.3 in War Thunder. Even the fragile British Sherman Mk II is placed at 3.7, a slightly higher battle rating.
That means the Chi-Nu can get uptiered and unfairly face angled hull M4 Sherman tanks. Its situation is comparable to the Panzer IV F1 encountering the KV-1 in War Thunder.
The core problem is its underwhelming ammunition. It struggles to penetrate Sherman tanks reliably in most engagements.
Then you can’t use the paper armor of german/japanese tanks either as an example as well.
Why? Somebody already did which including OP, that making a suggestion about that again could be marked as duplicated.
Well, we don’t have M3 GMC now don’t we? Like are we really going to not buff/nerf stuff in fear of just because some stuff might be added to make them obsolete? What kind of strange point is that?
Did I mention paper armor anywhere in this topic? You are the one who keep saying paper armor of chaffee.
You should do that if you really care about stuff being obsolete.
But your whole making stuff obsolete theory is just an excuse.
There are tons of stuff being obsolete because something was move down, there is nothing special.
You use it because you couldn’t find anymore point to prove Panzer 4F2 and Chi Nu 2 shouldn’t be on br2 if M24 receive M61.
You claim M24 with M61 will not be OP. But when talking about bringing Panzer4 F2 and Chi Nu 2 that will have comparable performance to br2, you reject. Why? They will not be OP if M24 will not be OP.
What are you talking about? I was talking about the paper armors of german/japanese tanks on BR 1-3 that you were implying not M24 for the context in that specific reply wasn’t i? Also you didn’t say it in literal sense but you did imply it multiple times by saying that M24 would rip them apart if M61 to be given.
Here
And here
Aaand here.
I should advocate nerf/buff to already existing stuff for would be stuff that might be added in the future if i really care about something being obsolete? What kind of half-baked logic is that? I don’t really get it.
Okay name those “tons of stuff” that got obsolete by something moved down then. Gimme some examples please. In enlisted, AFAIK stuff being obsolete is almost always not because something moved down from higher BR but rather some obsolete stuff received buff or, when new stuff got added with better stats. And i have been asking for a buff multiple times for such stuff that got obsolete by new stuff being added mind you.
Japanese tanks, as i established eariler sucks and theoretically speaking Chi-Nu 2 also wouldn’t be OP on BR 2 in statwise but i disagreed with it being on BR 2 for it would make other vehicles including TD obsolete and also would sets wrong examples. I’d rather see that Chi-Nu 2 gets reload speed buff rather than going down to BR 2 and make things even more complicated.
Panzer 4 F2 is a different case because Panzer 4 F2 is clearly a better vehicle than Chi-Nu 2 in a number of ways including turret coaxial MG and the MG itself is much better, 5.9 seconds reload speed is also much better than 6.5 seconds reload speed obviously. The only lacking part compared to Chi-Nu 2 for Panzer 4 F2 is the sheer penetration and the amount of HE filler in it’s AP but what Panzer 4 F2 cannot penetrate, Chi-Nu 2 cannot penetrate as well(for the most part anyway). Like, sure Panzer 4 F2 lacking armor compared to something like Panzer 4 G but not by a lot. Thinking it as both T-28 and T-28E on the same BR despite T-28E is pretty much a better vehicle in every possible way but the added armor on T-28E doesn’t really doing a lot last i checked.
Additionally, i guess i could make an argument that some vehicle squads cannot use other Panzer 4 like Panzer 4 G, J, H but can use Panzer 4 F2 that potentially useful for making multiple BR line-ups i suppose.
The point is those weak br1 cannon didn’t have good post pen damage while M61 has.
Panzer4H been move down to br3 causing Panzer 4F2 to be obsolete.
Stug 3F been move down to br2 causing Marder 3 to be obselete.
M4A2 76W been move to br4 causing M4A1 76W to be obsolete.
If you like to use obsolete point, let me use it against you. Wouldn’t M24 receiving M61 causing M8A1 receive M61 to become obsolete?
Well don’t compare it to Chi Nu2, compare it with M24. Both have coaxial mg. Panzer 4F2 did have 0.6s faster reload but the cost is it only has half of the explosive filler on its AP round. It is a fair trade off.
like any BR 2 smg once MP 40 was moved down then same thing again when M38/42 was moved down
Any soviet tank in BR 3 when the KV 1 was moved down
Any US smg once the M1A1 was moved down
The Br 2 Ho-ni when the Na-to was moved down
Moved down equipment 100% cause obsolete equipment
The list would be even longer if you also count reworks/buffs for existing TT weapons or new additions causing obsolete items. (or event/premium which are the biggest offenders here)
What are you even talking about? MP-40 never even considered as good even for a moment(At least for the people with sane mind that is) in the entire history of enlisted.
Yea even when that brought down to BR 2 it didn’t make any other BR 2 SMG obsolete. What SMG made it obsolete exactly anyway? It’s only gotten at least somewhat good when it brought down to BR 2 and then AFTER it received a buff.
Not really. Tanks like T-34E still have number of advantages over KV-1. Better gun would be one of the prime example there.
This is the only example that makes sense so far.
Correct me if i’m wrong there but isn’t Na-To reloads slower than Ho-Ni?
Not always, it’s rare compared to that the stuff getting buff without BR change. So far only M1A1 example that you provided makes sense as well.
Yep and that’s much bigger and frequent causation of something gets obsolete but we were mainly talking about the stuff gets down from higher BR make things obsolete.
That point is weak as ever when M14 with 75mm gun sitting on BR 1 to be honestly.
Not by a lot and you ignored the context of squads that are able to use Panzer 4 F2 but not other Panzer 4s. Having 30mm less armor on hull front on BR 3 doesn’t really mean much when it’s literally between whether you could use that vehicle for multiple BR line-ups or not.
Marder 3 still reloads faster with better penetration and hull MG tho.
Sure. So far the only example that truly made something obsolete i guess since IIRC they share the same squad. But i’d argue that M4A2 with 76mm gun never even deserved to be placed on such high BR to begin with and bringing down was necessary for better game balance that i think 99% of playerbase would agree.
Any more examples? That’s hardly “tons of stuff” tho.
Of course. But at least it wouldn’t be so far behind of M24 as long as M8A1 also gets M61. M8A1 is much faster and doesn’t share the same squad since they are separated premium squads. It could have it’s own niche uses as long as it’s not utter garbage compared to other vehicles on the same BR like it does right now.
You literally brought up both vehicles first tho. What?
