Replace the Kurogane jeep Type 11 machine gun by the Type 92 HMG please

Do you want to see this change ?
  • Yes, replace it by the Type 92 HMG
  • No, keep it as it is (with the Type 11 LMG)
0 voters

By researching a bit into the Kurogane Type 95 armament, it would appear that the choice of putting the Type 11 LMG on a pintle mount at the back of the car is incorrect, because the pintle mount was made for the heavier Type 92 machine gun, while the Type 96 or Type 11 LMG was installed through the foldable windshield and operated by the passenger next to the driver.

The source I used is this one: Type-95 Kurogane

And here are a few pics, but sadly I couldn’t find any historical ones where a machine gun is mounted on the car:
With Type 11 LMG:
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With Type 96 LMG:
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With Type 92 HMG:
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And pics of models:
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This source (truck encyclopedia website) is generally quite reliable, because it is the same type of website as the tank encyclopedia one that is often used by the WT users who write articles on the WT wiki, and from what I understand, each article is controlled by a moderator before being published, so I guess these articles would have been rejected if they used unreliable sources.

And we can also assume that in terms of practicality it would be easier to use the Type 11 and 96 LMGs next to the driver, where you are sat in a seat and can easily access the ammo.

Because picture this: you are manning the MG on the pintle mount, the car goes at 60 km/h on a very rough terrain, the MG is empty and you have to reload it:

-With the Type 11 LMG, you have to open the hopper, try to get all those tiny stripper clips from where they are stored (or given to you by the passenger next to the driver), and insert them one by one before closing the hopper. In game, the Type 11 is reloaded in one go because the guy grabs a pile of clips and inserts them all at once, but you are a foot soldier, and you aren’t in a vehicle going full speed on rough terrain and clinging to the LMG to avoid falling from the car ! And indeed, putting the Type 11 next to the driver and being sat next to him is probably waaaaay better to reload this particular gun, because, just like for the side car already in the game, it is way easier to reload while being sat and having the clips just next to you or even in your pouches.

-With the Type 92 HMG, this would be much easier, because it uses these 30 round metal strips that are way bigger than the 5 round stripper clips, so they are easier to grab from where these are stored or if they are given to you by the passenger. The reload method is also way more simple for the Type 92 than the Type 11: you just put the metal strip in the gun and it’s done, which is way easier to do when the car is on the move. And also, the Type 92 has spade grips, which are likely way better when you cling to the machine gun to avoid falling from the car than with the Type 11.

I know that some parts of my argumentation are speculative, but:

  1. This change would not affect too much the Kurogane jeep as it is right now in the test server, because both of these MGs (Type 11 and Type 92) have a capacity of 30 rounds, the difference would be in the caliber (6.5 mm for the Type 11 and 7.7mm for the Type 92) but the Type 92 has a slightly slower rate of fire compared to the Type 11 iirc, which would counterbalance the higher damage of the Type 92.
  2. While there are no historical pics of this installation, it has already been done in the game for the Type 1 Ho Ha halftrack: no historical pictures of this vehicle with the Type 97 LMGs it has in game exist.
  3. It would make more sense to mount a HMG/GPMG on the pintle mount than an LMG if you want to use your jeep as a mobile MG nest and if you need to sustain fire for longer periods of time, and because the other nations all have this type of gun on their jeeps on the test server: the M1919A4 and the MG34 are more GPMGs because they were used by infantry and inside tanks, while the DS-39 is more a HMG like the Type 92, because even if they had a “small” caliber for an HMG, they were still equipped only with spade grips and could only be used on a tripod or a mount, and they had a very heavy weight.

Thanks for reading :slightly_smiling_face:

Feel free to leave your thoughts. :slightly_smiling_face:

I’ll try to add a few things later.

Here is an edit to add a few findings I wrote in a post on this topic, it is a copy-paste of that post, but it adds more arguments:

Now, for the other reason I wanted to add about why mounting a Type 11 on a pintle mount is unrealistic and even why the way it is done in game is wrong. First, let’s take a look at the tripod used to mount the Type 11:
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As you can see, the tripod for the Type 11 is attached to the barrel of the gun. By that logic, if you put the Type 11 LMG on a pintle mount on a vehicle, the attachment point should be the same, right ?
Well, it turns out, as it is in game, that this is not the case, as you can see in the video:

As you can see, the Type 11 is attached to the receiver of the gun, and not to the barrel as it normally should.
And this is where it becomes completely unrealistic: The guy manning the MG is already pushed way too much to the rear of the car, and he is sitting on the body of the car, but if the attachment point of the Type 11 was historically accurate, and the pintle was attached to the barrel of the gun as it should be, then the guy would be pushed even further at the rear of the car ! Which would make this configuration, as you could guess, completely unusable.

The Type 92 on the other hand, doesn’t have this problem:


As you can see, the gun is attached to the tripod way more “at middle length”, so the attachment point to the pintle mount of the kurogane should be there as well. And because of the fact that this machine gun doesn’t have any buttstock, but spade grips instead, if it was mounted on the kurogane, the gunner would be in a way more comfortable position, and could probably fully stand, instead of being completely pushed out of the car as he is right now in the current configuration with the Type 11 LMG.

Here is another edit with two pics from the game Squad 44 (previously Post Scriptum) found by @Veekay45 that show the kurogane in this game equipped with a Type 92 HMG and not a Type 11 LMG. This is quite important, because this game is probably the most accurate WW2 game you could get atm, even more than Hell Let Loose, so they are very meticulous about the historical accuracy of the stuff they do. So if the devs from this game chose to depict the kurogane in their game with a Type 92 HMG, then I trust them on this point:
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20 Likes

what if type 11 and type 96 goes to br1 , while 92 goes to br2 ? not sure will jeep be downtier to br 1

By doing a bit of research, it would appear that all the jeep models with MGs are correct, here are the pics that I found:

For the US jeep with a 1919A4 MG:

I know that the M2 Browning (.50 Cal) on a pintle mount was used more often than not on the Jeep, but this installation with the M1919A4 was taken somewhere in the Pacific in 1944:

The Armoured Jeep (incoming premium) was experimented upon, but never really adopted because of the added weight that made the engines suffer, but it was at least produced in small quantities, so it’s accurate:
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The bazooka mod was made in the field by US soldiers, so it’s accurate too:
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Weirdly enough ,I didn’t find any historical pics of the Kubelwagen with a pintle-mounted MG, but with all the model, reenacting, and drawing stuff I found, I guess it is accurate; and it would seem that the MG34 was only temporarily mounted because it was a GPMG and it was likely dismounted after and installed on a proper tripod for infantry:
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You can see the GPMG stored in the middle, with the tripod at the rear:
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For the Zwillingssockel on the kubelwagen, I knew the installation was made, but I didn’t find any pics, but however, I found something better ! : A video :
https://www.reddit.com/r/shittytechnicals/comments/1c8tj5t/zwillingslafette_36_twin_mg_34_mount_in_the_rear/
There are a few things that need to be corrected on the version ingame, so I’ll eventually make another suggestion later.

For the soviets, this seems to be accurate, because here are some historical pics of the GAZ-64 with a DS-39 MG:
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6 Likes

A Willy’s jeep with an Browning M2 and a wire cutter would be cool, however adding the wire cutter as purchasable decoration would make sense. May need to wait a bit for my wish though because this Japanese Kurogane is in a poor state with the type 11plus the general quirks that need fixing first (squad size and overheat).

3 Likes

Kurogane was a very small vehicle, so not much place for 5 guys. But I know that the Type 11 LMG doesn’t make much sense for this vehicle, and the vids I saw make it look like very uncomfortable, if not impossible to shoot as it is rn.

5 Likes

Yep but whether they sit on the side or boot or the 4 seater version in another post there should be a way to make it fair and so that we all get bigger squad size than 3.

2 Likes

Our French friends remain, as always, rational and accurate in their historical re-enactment of equipment.

1 Like

I’d be happier to drop the MG all together and add a couple more soldiers.

5 Likes

Preferably both, but yeah I agree.

2 Likes

Hopefully they will add a tech tree Jeep, maybe with no guns but can carry at least four soldiers to go along with their premium three man MG Jeeps. I have no desire to buy the three man Jeeps, although the MG’s would be nice, the additional soldier for me would be nicer. :blush:

5 Likes

you have my support, @Emperor_Yoshiro we need your blessing

4 Likes

Having several versions of these vehicles in the trees would be nice: Jeeps were used for a variety of roles: transport, resupply, medevac, recon, mobile mg nest, light AA fire, transmissions, etc… So it would be nice to have the possibility to choose between these variants.

I also found pics of the trailers used when transporting panzerschecks with the kubelwagen or by horse:
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Other than that, it seems that the germans also did the same type of installation as the americans with panzerschecks mounted on some kubelwagen. Apparently it was made during the battle for Berlin, but sadly it looks like no pics of this exist. I could only find this speculative drawing:
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But they made the same kind of makeshift tank destroyer on a Borgward chassis, here:
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Link to the website about panzerschreck transport, lots of nice pics:
https://www.bergflak.com/pstransp.html

4 Likes

Nope. Shouldn’t have asked to change the type 4.

Also the ds 39 is barely an “HMG”… giving an HMG to Japan’s would be an imbalance as there are jeeps with HMG in files

You have my blessing ! This topic is approved by the Emperor !


(feel free to use my propaganda posters and spread them on the forum until the devs add more fighter aircrafts to Japan my propaganda campaign will continue )

They can always add Type 3 LMG with bigger mag:
Type3hmg

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the-type-3-machine-gun-standard-japanese-hmg-of-the-great-v0-xt8mqto232u71

5 Likes

Thanks my lord !

For the machine gun on the kurogane, I prefer to stay as historically accurate as possible, which means it could be either the Type 11 or 96 LMG through the windshield, or the Type 92 HMG on the pintle mount as described in my first post. These guns would make sense because the kurogane was adopted in the 30s, so it would make sense to use the guns already in service on these cars.

Thanks for your suggestion, but I don’t think they would have mounted the Type 3 HMG on this car though, because it was adopted in 1914, while the kurogane was adopted in 1936, and the Type 92 HMG was the main japanese MG by then, so I think it would make more sense to put the more modern Type 92 HMG instead of the Type 3 HMG on their brand new car when it was adopted in 1936.

4 Likes

Well I’m more of a fan of type 11 they can just give it bigger hopper type 96 is also not bad. I will play them for fun so for me it doesn’t really matter.

2 Likes

The Type 92 HMG is only a HMG because the japanese classified it as such. The classification is quite different today: by today’s standards the Type 92 would be a LMG because it shoots a rifle cartridge, and today we call HMGs as such because they shoot high caliber rounds (.50 cal or bigger). But if you look at WW1, all the machine guns like the MG08, the Vickers, the Hotchkiss, the Maxim, etc… were all considered HMGs, but they used rifle caliber rounds. They were considered HMGs because, well, they were heavy. The same reasoning was applied to the Type 92 HMG. The DS-39 is the same: it was made to replace the Maxim, and there was still this mindset of “big machine guns with spade grips that could only be used on a tripod”. Of course, by today’s standards the DS-39 is considered a LMG, but it was not the case when it was adopted.

And changing the machine gun on the kurogane wouldn’t affect its stats much: the Type 11 “LMG” shoots 6.5mm rounds in a 30 rounds “mag” at 500 rpm, while the Type 92 “HMG” shoots 7.7mm rounds in a 30 round strip at 450 rpm. So basically in terms of stats, it would inflict a bit more damage but would have a slightly slower rof to counterbalance this.

1 Like

No problem with that, but as it is right now in the server, the visibility with this gun is very bad, and it looks very awkward, because the stock prevents the guy manning the Type 11 to fully stand, and he has to sit on the body of the car at the back. But with the spade grips of the Type 92, the guy wouldn’t have that problem and could likely be fully standing at the back of the car.

3 Likes

Well they can add the scope and the 45 rounds magazine problem solved and a type 96 lmg on the second person next to the driver there is many options.

2 Likes

The Type 91 tank MG (the tank version of the Type 11) has these 45 rounds and scope (it even had only a pistol grip when installed inside a vehicle, they only switched to a proper buttstock for infantry use), but the problem is the fact that we still don’t have it ingame yet as a proper gun. So I guess it probably won’t come before some time if the devs choose to put this gun on the kurogane. At least the Type 92 is fully modeled in game, so I guess switching the guns wouldn’t take too much work. But it would be cool to get the Type 91 one day.

3 Likes