Hello bajtársak and fellow forumdwellers,
First of all, this is NOT a suggestion. Though many parts of it could be stand alone suggestions as they are, but for now I’m just putting concepts to test here.
I’m most interested in the feedback, there are a staggering amount of polls on this topic, please only vote after reading and carefully considering the given information.
I did my best to include all the important details as briefly as possible.
The main concept is discussing weapons that can be tied to the Soviet faction one way or another with the end goal of adding some weapons from the list to the game.
In the last major update, a Chinese rifle, the Type 88 was added to the Soviet tech tree. This was undoubtedly controversial, however it carried two important messages most people overlooked:
- The Soviet faction can not exist solely on Soviet (and Imperial Russian) guns anymore, most of the interesting guns have already been added to the game.
- The Soviet faction now has a subfaction of its own, Communist China.
For now I will leave my personal feelings out of this and speak objectively.
It would be hypocritical to force the Soviet faction to only have Soviet guns, when Axis have not only German and Italian, but Hungarian, Czech, Romanian, Finnish, French, Polish guns and the same can be said about Allies as well.
I’m sure that with some time Japan will also have its arsenal expanded with weapons of its own Asian allies.
Before we can begin discussing the guns, there is one final idea I wish to present as it will be relevant in the polls. Some of you may remember this, since this is an old idea of mine, reshared multiple times.
Subtree of nations in the tech tree
The nation specific subtree holds weapons and vehicles unique to the nation.
Weapons and vehicles in the subtree can only be used by squads of the said nation, to maintain historical accuracy and make playing with different nations slightly more unique.
So for example, if the Beretta 38/43 was in the Italian subtree, only Italian squads could use it.
It’s completely separate from the main tech tree, not just Italy and Britain but also the US and Germany would have them.
This also helps to increase the size of the tech tree without bloating it.
The sub tree could have no requirements and special requirements to research equipment.
Special requirements could be that the player must first unlock a certain gun, such as in order to research the Beretta 38/43 you must research and buy the Beretta 38/42 first.
I will simply scrap this idea if people show no interest in adding guns to potential subtrees.
Finally, if you have another idea that was not available in the polls or would like to share information, please comment. This topic is in the mess room because I want to discuss these guns.
Thank you for bearing with me.
Depending on the results and support, I will eventually write separate suggestions for some of these guns, but should anyone wish to beat me to it, you are welcome to, I included the used sources as well to help with that.
The Spanish civil war was fought between 1936-39 by the Spanish Nationalists and the Spanish Republicans. The Nationalists enjoyed the support of most of the army, much of the rural population, Germany and Italy, Nationalists also controlled the colonies and the military warehouses.
The Republicans controlled the navy, urban and industrialised areas but lacked significant quantities of rifles and experienced officer corps. Only the Soviet Union offered meaningful help for the Republicans thus becoming dependent on the Soviets.
With pressure from Stalin, the NIM an NKVD style political police was formed that executed political enemies and helped stalinists that took orders directly from Moscow to key positions. As the conflict progressed and grew in scale, so did the control of Moscow.
After the war, Spanish republicans smuggled some of the weapons to French communists and it is also possible that the Soviet officials and Spanish refugees returning to the Soviet Union brought some weapons with them, however due to the general time and location gap between World War II and the Spanish Civil War, I arbitrarily limited Spanish civil war weapons to event, BP and premium squads in the polls.
Guns unique to the Nationalist cause are naturally not listed.
The Model 1893 rifle was designed by Paul Mauser and is commonly known as the Spanish Mauser, even though the Ottoman Empire, Belgium, Brazil and others also adopted the rifle.
By the time of the Spanish civil war, the Mauser M1893 had been in service for decades and in multiple wars. It’s a rugged, reliable rifle that was just as good as another rifle if maintained properly. Regular army soldiers praised them for their excellent accuracy and stopping power but militia units disliked them because they usually got the short end of the stick with poorly maintained rifles.
It’s an ideal weapon for long range shooting with its unusually high muzzle velocity.
(Ideal as it is for sniping, weirdly enough I don’t know about any original Spanish scoped M1893 rifles, if anyone does, please share with us!)
Ammunition: 7x57 Mauser
Magazine: 5 rounds, loaded via stripper clip (first Mauser rifle with the feature)
Muzzle velocity: 850 m/s (with 7x57 M1913 round)
Weight: 4 kg (empty)
Barrel length: 738 mm
sources:
Mauser Model 1893 - Wikipedia
Ball, Robert W. D: Mauser military rifles of the world
- Yes
- Yes, but not for Soviets
- No
- As event weapon
- As premium/event squad weapon
- As Battle Pass weapon
- BR1 - bolt-action rifle
- BR2 - bolt-action rifle
The M1916 is a modernised carbine developed from the M1895 carbine which in turn is just a M1893 shortened to carbine length.
The M1916 was adopted because the M1895’s barrel was insufficient to take full advantage of the more powerful M1913 round.
Ammunition: 7x57 Mauser
Magazine: 5 rounds
Muzzle velocity: 850 m/s (probably slightly lower, but I couldn’t find a reliable source)
Weight: 3.8 kg (empty)
Barrel length: 552mm
sources:
Mauser Model 1893 - Wikipedia
Ball, Robert W. D: Mauser military rifles of the world
- Yes
- Yes, but not for Soviets
- No
- As event weapon
- As premium/event squad weapon
- As Battle Pass weapon
- BR1 - bolt-action rifle
- BR2 - bolt-action rifle
El Tigre or “the Tiger” rifle was a Spanish copy of the Winchester 1892 lever-action rifle. Chambered in .44 Largo, it was considered inadequate for the army however the El Tigre was widespread among the Guardia Civil before the Civil War.
Due to its lighter weight, ease of operation and 12 rounds tubular magazine, it was a very popular rifle among the militia of the Spanish Republic.
In game the most comparable rifle, the Winchester 1866 is BR1 so logically the El Tigre should be as well.
Ammunition: .44 Largo [.44-40 Winchester]
Magazine: 12 rounds in (fixed) tubular magazine (keep in mind that rounds must be reloaded one by one)
Muzzle velocity: 400m/s
Weight: 2.8 kg (empty)
Length: 99.5 cm (shorter/carbine var.)
Barrel length: 55.2 cm (shorter/carbine var.)
- Yes
- Yes, but not for Soviets
- No
- As event weapon
- As premium/event squad weapon
- As Battle Pass weapon
- Yes
- No
The Naranjero or sometimes called “Mp28 Avispero”, was a Spanish copy of the MP 28/II submachine gun.
The Narenjero was manfactured in Valencia, and was named after the numerous orange trees that were cultivated in the region. The Narenjero was modified to fire 9x23mm Largo instead of 9x19mm Parabellum and the magazine’s capacity was increased to 36 rounds. Around 2000 were manufactured in 1938–1939; while quite powerful in theory, the Naranjero was, most likely because of its manufacturing conditions, a dangerous weapon, prone to accidental discharges. It should be noted that the name Naranjeros was also given to Elma-Vollmer submachine-guns delivered from Poland, which makes the whole situation quite confusing.
Looking at guns with similar characteristics (Beretta M1, Mp28 (32)) the logical BR feels BR2.
Ammunition: 9x23 Largo (36 rounds in detachable box magazine)
Muzzle velocity: 400 m/s
Weight: 4.7 kg (empty)
Length: 832 mm
Barrel length: 200 mm
Rate of fire: 500-550 rounds per minute
sources:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ForgottenWeapons/comments/io9go5/spanish_republican_naranjero_mp28ii_copy_c1937/
https://www.gehm.es/siglo-xx/subfusiles-de-la-guerra-civil-espanola-i-mp-28-naranjero/
- Yes
- Yes, but not for Soviets
- No
- As event weapon
- As premium/event squad weapon
- As Battle Pass weapon
BR1 is a typo, I meant to say BR2!
- Yes
- No
The M-1938 was manufactured in Catalonia for the Spanish republicans in the late stages of the civil war, only a few thousand may have been built at best, for a wartime submachine it is unusually well made and is of high quality.
With its 36 rounds box magazine, 750 rpm fire and powerful 9x23 projectiles, it is a force to be reckoned with on the battlefield.
During the Second World War some of the guns were smuggled to French resistance.
Its most comparable to the Beretta 38 (40) but with high fire rate, making this gun very powerful for BR3 but slightly underpowered on BR4 mostly due to the magazine capacity. I would say its fair BR is 3, but the matter should be settled by a vote.
Ammunition: 9x23 Largo (36 rounds in detachable box magazine)
Muzzle velocity: 400 m/s
Weight: 4.4 kg (empty)
Length: 794 mm
Barrel length: 260 mm
Rate of fire: 750 rounds per minute, push-button fire selector for both full-auto and semi-auto firing
sources:
Modern Firearms - Labora submachine gun
Bergmann or Bayard Long Fontbernat M 1938 (Labora)
Client Challenge
- Yes
- Yes, but not for Soviets
- No
- As event weapon
- As premium/event squad weapon
- As Battle Pass weapon
- Battle Rating III
- Battle Rating IV
The Kingdom of Yugoslavia fell within 13 days after the Axis invasion in 1941, most of its territory was carved up along ethnic lines, however the resistance formed just as quickly as the government fell. The Tito led National Liberation Army was the fast growing and most effective partisan movement during the war, with its own organised command structure and supply lines.
The National Liberation Army loyal to the Communist Party of Yugoslavia is an obvious candidate to be a Soviet subfaction.
After World War I Serbia had received a significant stock of Mannlicher rifles as reparations. These rifles were rechambered to 8mm Mauser and by the time of the Second World War these rifles were relegated to rear units and training, however significant portions fell into the hands of Tito’s partisans.
It could also be argued that this rifle would make more sense with the Axis due to its calibre, and it’s true that these rifles also saw service with Germany, Italy and Bulgaria. In German service it was known as the Karabiner 505(j).
sources:
Serbia Yugoslavia Mannlicher M95 Rifle and Carbine
https://www.milsurps.com/content.php?r=392-Yugoslavian-M95M-Infantry-Rifle-(Puska-M95)
- Yes
- Yes, but not for Soviets
- No
- In the tech tree
- In a Yugoslavian subfaction tree
- As event weapon
- As premium/event squad weapon
- As premium/event squad weapon with a Yugoslav squad
- As Battle Pass weapon
- Battle Rating I
- Battle Rating II because all straight pull bolt-actions are BR2
The ZB-30J is Czechoslovakian machine gun based on the ZB-30 machine gun made specifically for Yugoslavian contract, though Venezuela also purchased some 110 ZB-30J machine guns chambered in 7mm Mauser.
The main feature of the ZB-30J was an adjustable gas system for switching between light and heavy ball 8mm Mauser ammunition.
Its logical BR is BR2 just like the ZB-26.
Ammunition: 7.92x57 Mauser (20 rounds in detachable box magazine)
Muzzle velocity: 750 m/s
Weight: 9.6kg (loaded)
Length: 1204 mm
Barrel length: 601 mm
Rate of fire: 550 rounds per minute
(despite the popular misconception, there is no 30 rounds magazine for ZB-26 or ZB-30, wikipedia just lists both ZB and Bren mags next to each other even though they are NOT interchangeable).
sources:
https://marstar.ca/product/brno-zb-30j/
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30033263
Small arms of the world; a basic manual of small arms by Smith, W. H. B.
- Yes
- Yes, but not for Soviets
- No
- In the tech tree
- In a Yugoslavian subfaction tree
- As event weapon
- As premium/event squad weapon
- As premium/event squad weapon with a Yugoslav squad
- As Battle Pass weapon
For Greece, the second world war started with the Greco-Italian War 28 October 1940, the Italians invaded from Albania, expecting a quick victory but the Greek army with British support has valiantly pushed them back to Albania. However the fortunes of war turned against the Hellenes in 1941 with Germany and Bulgaria joining in the war on the side of Italy. Greece was quickly overrun and occupied.
1941 was a bad year for Greece, not only the Greek people lost the war but the mismanaged Axis occupation caused hyperinflation and famine.
The Greek people´s liberation army (ELAS), a coalition army nominally commanded by the National Liberation Front (EAM) “popular front”, which was actually led by the KKE, the Greek communist party. The organization had very successfully combated the Axis occupation in the Italian controlled occupation zones, the Italians -who were too gentlemanly in occupation- struggled to maintain control of their positions.
These gave EAM a surge in popularity and in 1944 when the Axis evacuated Greece due to Romania and Bulgaria sudden betrayal, the EAM controlled most of Greece and if not for the British intervention and subsequent Greek civil war, the communists would have controlled the country.
The Mannlicher-Schönauer is the final work of the legendary weapon designer, Ferdinand Ritter Von Mannlicher, his friend Otto Schönauer patented the unique spool magazine for the rifle. It is regarded as the finest sporting rifle of the era, combining all desirable traits of a conventional rotary bolt-action rifle.
It is a testament to the rifle’s quality that it remained Greece’s standard issue rifle throughout both world wars.
Sources:
Greek Mannlicher-Schoenauer Rifle Austro-Hungarian Weapons
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKP-xOvGoUc
Mannlicher Schoenauer Rifles
Ammunition: 6.5×54mm Mannlicher–Schönauer
Magazine: 5 rounds
Muzzle velocity: 680 m/s (with M1903 ball cartridge)
Weight: 3.58 kg
Length: 1025 mm
Barrel length: 525 mm
- Yes
- Yes, but not for Soviets
- No
Original poll got closed accidentally, just vote in the new one.
- In the tech tree
- In a Greek subfaction tree
- As event weapon
- As premium/event squad weapon
- As premium/event squad weapon with a Greek squad
- As Battle Pass weapon
- As Battle Pass weapon
- As event weapon
- As premium/event squad weapon
- As premium/event squad weapon with a Greek squad
- In a Greek subfaction tree
- In the tech tree
- BR1 - bolt-action rifle
- BR2 - bolt-action rifle
I can’t really say much about this submachine gun because it’s a very obscure and rarely talked about gun.
It was manufactured by the Greek company Chropei during the Axis occupation and was used by the Greek resistance.
One example is displayed in Greece in the Μουσειο Σχολης Πεζικου/Infantry School Museum, I linked a video in which they probably mention the submachine gun, however I don’t speak Greek thus I don’t understand what they are talking about.
It is claimed that variants in both 9x19 and .45 acp existed but the one on display is obviously chambered in 9mm parabellum based on the barrel’s size (it’s easy to compare on the video since it’s displayed next to MP40s). I included the statistics of both variants but without a picture of the .45 acp variant one, I don’t think it can be added.
Ammunition: 9x19 parabellum (in 30 rounds detachable magazine)
Muzzle velocity: 390 m/s
Weight: 3.2 kg
Length: 800mm
Barrel length: 213mm
Rate of fire: 500 rounds per minute
seems like normal BR2 SMG
Ammunition: 11.43x25mm/.45 ACP (in 20 rounds detachable magazine)
Muzzle velocity: 300m/s (claimed, probably lower)
Weight: 4 kg
Length: 800 mm
Barrel length: 213 mm
Rate of fire: 400 rounds per minute
sources:
https://www.secondeguerre.net/armement/armes-dinfanterie/pistolet-mitrailleur-makrykano-m1943/
For a “random” website, it is surprisingly reliable.
https://youtu.be/9EJ85voD0-Q?si=7werIzJspD3xia9T&t=388
https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Μακρυκανο_Υ1943
- Yes
- Yes, but not for Soviets
- No
- In the tech tree
- In a Greek subfaction tree
- As event weapon
- As premium/event squad weapon
- As premium/event squad weapon with a Greek squad
- As Battle Pass weapon
In the mid-1930s, the Greek EPK company developed an experimental intermediate cartridge, the 7.92x36 mm EPK. The Pyrkal machine gun was designed for testing this new round, however the project was scrapped due to the Italian invasion of Greece in 1940.
Please keep in mind that both the EPK machine gun (estimated 10-15 made) and 8mm EPK are experimental hardware.
Despite the modern (and often hyped) 8mm EPK cartridge which theoretically is as capable as the 8mm kurz, the EPK machine gun is actually more of an “automatic rifle” like the BAR1918 or Fedorov Avtomat, a painfully outdated design for such a cartridge that is (conceptually at least) ahead of its time.
This weapon could be added both as a machine gun similar to the BAR and KE7 or as an assault weapon (I’m not calling it Assault Rifle on purpose) like the Fedorov Avtomat either available to assaulters or infantry like the M2 carbine.
Ammunition: 7.92x36 mm EPK (30 rounds detachable magazine)
Muzzle velocity: 823 m/s
Weight: 4.15 kg (unloaded)
Length: 900 mm
Barrel length: 400 mm
Rate of fire: 720 rounds per minute
sources:
EPK (Pyrkal) machine gun - Wikipedia (Im usually not a big fan of proving wikipedia as a source, but most of the info on it must come from “Christos Sazanidis, “Ta opla ton Ellinon (Arms of the Greeks)”, Maiandros, Thessaloniki (1995)” since the other book listed contains very little information, I did use that though but not the better Greek one since I would not understand it and I don’t own it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ForgottenWeapons/comments/md3yan/almost_an_assault_rifle_the_greek_pyrkal_79236mm/
Small Arms of the World - A Basic Manual of Small Arms (11th edition) - W. H. B. Smith
- Yes
- Yes, but not for Soviets
- No
- In the tech tree
- In a Greek subfaction tree
- As event weapon
- As premium/event squad weapon
- As premium/event squad weapon with a Greek squad
- As Battle Pass weapon
- Machine gun (BAR/RD-44) projected BR: 3/4
- Assaulter weapon (Fedorov Avt. like, available to assaulters) projected BR: 5
- Infantry weapon (M2 carbine like) projected BR: 5
- Other idea
- I don’t care, just add it.
The EPK Hotchkiss is a slightly improved Greek version of the French designed and produced Hotchkiss M1926 machine gun, chambered in 8mm Mauser or 6.5mm Mannlicher–Schönauer.
The Greek variant had its stock lengthed, stability improved and fire rate increased.
The EPK Hotchkiss saw extensive use with Greek troops, though Italy also captured them in large quantities and used them in the defense of Sicily thus both inclusions would be realistic.
One (different) version of the Hotchkiss machine, the Hotchkiss M1922 is in the game as a Japanese Battle Pass machine gun on BR2.
Ammunition: 7.92x57mm Mauser or 6.5×54mm Mannlicher–Schönauer (loaded with 30 round strips)
Muzzle velocity: 823 m/s (8mm Mauser)
Weight: 12.75 kg
Length: 1216 mm
Barrel length: 600 mm
Rate of fire: 450 rounds per minute
Sources:
https://www.forgottenweapons.com/light-machine-guns/hotchkiss-m19222426/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EYP_Hotchkiss_(Modified_Hotchkiss_machine_gun)
Hotchkiss M1922 - Modern Firearms
- Yes
- Yes, but not for Soviets
- No
- In the tech tree
- In a Greek subfaction tree
- As event weapon
- As premium/event squad weapon
- As premium/event squad weapon with a Greek squad
- As Battle Pass weapon
