The dominance of aircraft on the battlefield and the lack of threats to them

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101

What I’m saying is that since there is only one slot, what matters is who has the best plane in principle, not at level 4. Also, the 110’s complete inability to destroy tanks makes up for its pluses.

And this is the reason why 4 wfr vs. 10 Hvar is garbage

So you call the 109 a good plane, but then say it’s not because of broken damage in the game? sounds to me like you’re a retard.
“This plane would be cool if it wasn’t…” Well, when the factor goes away, then write. If the fw didn’t have a broken flight model (some hell of a problem with altitude rudders), it wouldn’t be bad either

You cannot attack with bots. Yes, they can save you (although mine shoot terribly), but I tried to shoot down enemy planes by flying close by - not particularly effective.
As for the bombs, yes, Ju is better than A20 in this regard (although now A20 bombs are noticeably more powerful than on Ju), but they are still worse than Thunderbolt.
I don’t see the point of many conversations, since if at least 1 person on a team has a Thunderbolt, he will play it all the time.
I note that a bunch of players have a gift tanderbolt, and it has ± the same armament, losing some power for the sake of maneuverability, starting to outmaneuver all German planes, except maybe 109
P.S. And you know, the p51 with two 500 Lbs bombs is a bit broken, not even close to any of the campaigns, it’s a bomber in a fighter’s body

102

ok and the thunderbolt has a chance to even use the slot because hahaha funny glitch that will never be fixed. also yes the bf110 can kill tanks with it’s rockets. there is literally no other plane that can straight up tear a plane apart like the bf110g-2 can

let’s hold onto this thought saw we?

you sound like you have never the bf109g-6 at all while i have with great effect to. so i can confidently say that if plane DMs were fixed then the 109g-6 would be the greatest fighter in the game as it combines a maneuverable airframe with good payloads

i put this below the 109g-6 argument because it makes the most amount of sense here. but can you really say that when you have said this

since after all it only gets 1 drop, so it seems a bit off there. so tell me do you think 1 drop versus 2 drops makes the p-51-d OP yet will say that 5 drops versus 2 is OP? or are you forgetting that the p-51d-5 is a late war American planes making it only good for BnZ, boom and zoom, which needs a large altitude advantage oh wait this isn’t war thunder. (before you say anything no i’m not calling the p-51d-5 bad because that would be a lie)

maybe they need to have full starts to be truly effective but i do know that trying to shoot down a ju-188 in my p-51 almost always ended up with me being crippled and forced to land

yet you will claim that HVARs are better because there is more of them? yeah that doesn’t sound off at all or maybe you want to be selective about it.

in terms of CAS it is worse because 6 m8s instead of 10 HVARs while that 1 bomb drop remains the same.

all 109s and the 190 can in theory outmaneuver the razorback, keep in mind that the razorback is full started, now the real question is can the ME410 can outmaneuver the razorback if it’s fully started as well

103

They aren’t as good you think they are. When you compare them to everything Allies have, they fall short.
The Normandy’s Bf 110 is definitely not the “strongest” plane you can get per level (that’s what it seems you meant?), it really only shines against infantry. For everything else it’s either ok or subpar.

104

It does, because it gets reduced to something people use to quickly kamikaze than anything else.

He means literally what he said; there can only be one bf 110 in the sky at a time.

The Bf 109g6 isn’t worse than the Fw in Normandy, that’s because its 4 50kg bombs reward skill way more. Along with the Fw being unnecessarily harder to maneuver and its relatively slow turn, it makes the 109 a better option for more skilled players.

Or you could had just said that the Thunderbolt IS smaller and harder to hit, instead of indirectly admitting it as to not actually admit it.

Only works on people dumb enough to go pretty much in a straight line, otherwise those bots will basically never hit you or at least barely.

Not really, the reason why the A-20 is rare to see is because the almost every other allied plane in Normandy is better at everything or almost everything (biggest reason being the P-47).

105

What glitch? Wait, do you think the P-47 is a fighter?

He never said you can’t destroy tanks with wfr but that its significantly harder, hard enough that it could be considered impossible for most players.

Doesn’t really matter, you have to get the enemy plane on sight and deal with the drop of the shells. This really only happens if the enemy pilot is subpar or you get lucky and catch him by surprise, since the former does happen relatively often it gives the illusion that the 110 is better at dogfighting than it actually is.

That’s a skill issue from your part. You shouldnt be getting “crippled” by its gunners, the only times I’ve been crippled like that have been because of the bomber squadrons or a gunner getting a single lucky( and at some extent a bs) shot that hits the engine.

The Hvar are better than the wfr because you can rocket multiple areas instead of only two, along with them being way easier to take out tanks with.
The guy wasnt being selective, he literally admitted that the Ju is better for bombs. Just that taking into account multiple similarities between both planes, the 4 500lb bombs dont fall so far behind.

Not really a theory for the 109, as for the Fw it struggles at outmaneuvering it unless you do hit and zoom (which is the correct way of using the plane anyway). The thing is that with the bad damage models, doing this can actually be quite hard unless you are good at sniping the pilot or doing multiple, direct hits on wings or critical spots.

By “fully started” you mean upgraded? Just looking at the stats is enough to know that the ME wont struggle much. It can stay on its tail without much trouble, unlike the Fw.

106

the only thing meh about the bf110 is it’s ability to take out tanks which it can still do but when it comes to taking out aircraft no other airplane can do what it can do.

by that logical IL-2 is SHIT compared to the stuka because it’s meh at taking out literally anything but aircraft as well as being a low level, yet that isn’t how it works since people will kamikaze in an aircraft no matter what level it is

look i had to clarify because there was a team where the axis could actually only get one aircraft up in the sky which was fixed fasted than they have with the allied p-38G

Thunderbolt;
Length: 11.0173 m
Wingspan: 12.429 m
Height: 4.472 m

BF110:
Length: 2.0714 m
Wingspan:16.2497 m (53 ft 3.75 in)
Height: 4.128 m (13 ft 6.5 in)
hmmm looks like they are the similar size to me

and you know P-38G is takes the attacker spawn for some reason :crazy_face:

i doubt you even played allies, because it’s the p-38g that takes an attacker spawn despite it being in the fighter squad

if one knows the limit of his plane then he can do anything such as winning a dogfight in a stock a-20 against a bf110g-2

and yet that disproves my statement about the ju-188’s gunners being deadly how?

so more is better unless it’s not? because 21cm is more destructive than HVARs yet he claims HVARs are better because more of them so using that logical then BF109g-6 is better than 51d-5 because it gets more bombs, and the ju-188 is better because it gets more bombs.

the sole reason why i put the “in theory” is because of the 190 since it’s stat card says that it can out turn the razorback but slav coding is shit.

so much issues with planes can be stopped by just fixing the god damn DMs

yeah i meant fully starred not fully started so that was a brainfart moment on my end and thanks for informing me about that

107

The 110 is meh at everything except taking out infantry. The 2 30mm cannons and the 37mm cannon doesn’t make it good at dogfighting, just deadlier if it does manage to hit you.

Except that this “logical” you’re using wasn’t the logic I was using in the first place, read the context and come back. Btw, all the IL-2 in this game are leagues better than all the Stukas.

You weren’t clarifying anything, you just called him retarted for something you didn’t understand.

Maybe you have to get your eyes checked then because the 110 is overall 20-30% bigger, not as if it would matter though. Those numbers you wrote aren’t of the p47d or the bf110g2, I don’t even know where you got those…

Never have stopped the P-47 from spawning in tho…

Then why bring it up? The other guy wasn’t talking of that. You didn’t even write the sentence correctly that time, you also said nothing about the P-38 when mentioning the bug…

Knowing the limits of your plane doesn’t suddenly make it able to do what it can’t do. If you can’t out-climb it, out-dive it, out-speed it, out-turn it, there’s nothing you can really do. You’d have to rely on the other player being bad, or entering a head-on battle which also relies on the enemy being bad enough to think that’s a good idea.
For example, the 110 should never be beating the p38g1 in most situations (specially 1v1s). However, this happens quite often. It is as I said before, it’s pretty much a self-deception that you can dogfight effectively in it.

It disproves it in Enlisted as much as it does in Warthunder, maybe even more. It’s a piece of cake to avoid the gunners, if you are getting constantly crippled by them then you are doing something seriously wrong…

Doesn’t matter that the Wfr are a bit more destructive, Hvar do plenty of damage and can be shot in 5 different areas. Along with being way easier to destroy tanks, it makes it an overall way better option. The Wfr only shine against infantry in open areas and that’s about it, they are better at it but they just aren’t comparable to Hvar.
I can shoot my Hvar all around the point, yet still be left with enough to destroy a tank.

Everyone knows stat cards aren’t accurate, obviously a fighter is gonna out-turn a downgrade of an attacker in the game. The problem for the Fw isn’t that, it’s that it has bad maneuverability along with the quick energy and speed loss of the P-47 which makes it struggle when turning battles.

108

Couldn’t agree more that it needs addressing, I reckon 90% of my deaths are to planes that no one deals with. Not everyone can fly so ‘just jump in a fighter’ solution doesn’t work., anyone should be able to have some way of countering it, so AA gun damage needs sorting or the plane damage models fixed, whichever is causing that method to not be very effective.

Also AA vehicles! That would create a way of dealing with them that is actually fun and said vehicles wouldn’t be very heavily armoured anyway so would make things like the AT rifle grenade have something they can actually deal with potentially. All nations in the game had AA vehicles that would work quite balanced I feel.

109

effective against infantry, not against planes.

So machinegun in plane is effective / threat against plane but same machinegun with exactly same caliber magically aint threat / effective against plane from ground ?

Except the houses are at best 50/50.

So easy ? Daym, then we can solve this issue simply by removing bombs from planes. After all you only need to hit infantry with machine gun, cant be that hard.

110

That was the point. The historical stuff was just supposed to back up the argument.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but if I remember correctly, the only .50 cal weapons on the ground are on top of Shermans, so no infantry weapons are not the same caliber as the ones in planes, the MGs in planes are many times more powerful than the MGs used by infantry.

If ind if I lay down in a house right under a window, I can avoid dying 90% of the time. I don’t know what you are doing that has gotten the odds so low as to 50/50.

Did you not read the second part of that statement? I said let the bots start doing it again because the bots used to be able to do it, and fairly consistently. You are either stupid or being disingenuous.

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111

And which plane historically was able to take couple hundred direct hits from flak cannon ?

While at it care to inform me which german plane had .50cals ?

Perhaps you should try to do it at cap points / hotzones.

Yeah, pardon me its quite hard to follow up your logic here. At one point your arguing with “history” and then you suggest bots with BA to be the counter of planes.

112

None of them, but most of the time those flak cannons missed, and that appears to be the case here as well.

Are you serious? Literally every single German fighter in Normandy has the MG 131, which is the German approximation of a .50 cal, being 13mm instead of the conventional 12.7.

I do, and unless a rocket goes straight through the window of the point, I always survive. After they changed how explosives worked, its been easy to dodge CAS in the urban/suburban maps.

Fine, lets argue history. What would you think is more historical, a random trooper making a lucky one in a million shot by just firing blindly into the air, or a prototype Fliegerfaust somehow making it’s way into the battlefields of Normandy, because I can tell you the odds of both, and one in a million is certainly a lot higher than absolutely impossible.

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113

Ah, should have known. Most new players doesnt know that theres actually other campaigns as well other than normandy which appears to be the case here.
You aint first one to do such mistake so dont worry, we’re glad to help.
You can switch campaign at top right corner ingame and in most campaigns the main MG is indeed the “8mm mauser” in planes.
But Il grant that there are indeed planes armed with 13mm MG as well as well as with 20mm cannons.
That however doesnt change neglect the subject how same caliber guns performs differently.

Well this happens also quite often, that new players thinks every house is indeed a cap point which appears to be case here, but it isnt.
Its easy to be mistaken as most cap points indeed are indoors but that doesnt mean every house is a cap point.
Hopefully this clarified the misconception.
Also as side note, not every explosion is plane bomb. Hand grenades has significantly less range than bombs and plane’s bombs usually have different icon. By time you learn to tell the differency.
But dont worry, this is also rather common misconception among newplayers.

Well I thought I made myself rather clear. Id like them to fix the plane models so they dont eat 200 direct hits from flak cannon without damage & while at it make it so that even small arms such as MG is capable to inflict damage to planes other than sniping the pilot out, which is pretty much historically correct / realistic & balanced from game POV.
As currently its simply waste of time & bullets to shoot at planes with anything from the ground.

And while waiting them to eventually fix the models, introduce time limits to planes & increase the time to spawn.
This way planes dont have to be entirely useless but they aint constantly bombing flying tanks either due to increased distances / time limits.

But yeah, giving bots priority to snipe pilots could work as well. Im sure pilots would enjoy it far more than increased distance & time limits.

114

Why would I assume that we were talking about anything other than Normandy when the entire conversation has only been about Normandy? Are you really that stupid or are you being disingenuous.

Yeah yeah, all I see from you is skill issue. Dodging CAS has never been eaiser, and I die more from grenades than CAS because people can actually get them inside the buildings I am in.

I explained this already, most planes arn’t tanking 200 rounds of 20mm, most of the time you are missing or just grazing the wingtips. Typically, this requires that you close the distance to point blank, leaving no room for error, but I suppose increasing the throttle is too hard for some one as skill issued as you are. Furthermore, small arms including all rifle caliber guns were proven to do barely anything to even early war planes, with the British estimating needing to hit 300 rounds of .303 to down even just a 109, so no, outside of pilot sniping, a rifle caliber round wouldn’t do much to a plane. Time limits would just further encourage Kamikaze, because what is the point of staying in a fighter if the game is just going to kick you out regardless. Changing bots back to the way they were would be fine, the bots didn’t do it with a high enough frequency to be annoying, but enough sos that it became a meme.

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115

Have you read the topic ?
Seriously I dont mean to offend you and im not pranking.
There really is other campaigns than Normandy.

Which is why specified I prefer to play object. Im 100% sure you have no issues with cas if you spend the games at borders of map.

Oh so thats the reason why my AA is so ineffective ? Well you never know, you might learn something from newplayers.
Care to explain how I throttle my AA gun ?

While we’re at it, murricans estimated that they spent 25k ? Bullets per single kill.
Would you like your pilot to survive 25k rifle hits while we’re nitpicking entirely irrelevant historical facts ?
Or perhaps from ground POV you could calculate how much explosives were used per kill ? Would probably be quite high so lets say first 90 bombs doesnt harm you ?

Well kamikaze happens even now without the restrictions.

Yeah, we’re requesting / speaking of effective way to deal with planes. Your onces in a million bot shot doesnt exactly sound like effective does it ?
Nor stupid at all.

116

I have, but the context surrounding this conversation has only ever mentioned Normandy, so it is a safe assumption to presume that the topic being discussed is Normandy.

My guy, the only objective you should be dying to CAS in is the rail road gun on Ruins of Vaux. Every other point has a roof that covers you from most of the CAS, and lying down should keep you safe from most of the rest of it. It’s not that hard. Maybe if you stopped mindlessly running out in the open and dying to the CAS before you make it to the point, you could learn to press the prone button too.

My guy, are there not 20mm on planes, or are you actually this retarded. As for AA, its ineffective because you miss. We have already established this. The AA in this game is about as effective at shooting down planes as it was IRL, which is to say not at all. Should that be changed for balance? Maybe, but then that would screw over the infantry, so there is more to think about here.

That includes misses as well, and is completely besides the point. Rifle caliber weapons do very little against planes unless they manage to hit the few key components. The model for that is about as good as the ones in WT.

Yes, but that will make it worse.

Problem is that planes are kind of difficult to balance. Put too many restrictions on them and people will only use them as self guided missiles, which is impossible to counter. The devs already did the one reasonable thing they could have done and that is give infantry ways to avoid being killed by the bombs and rockets once they strike. Honest to god, just try lying down when bombs fall nearby you, you will be surprised what it can do. As for tank, I don’t know what anyone can do for them. It may suck for them, but putting too many restrictions on aircraft will make it suck more, as people will just suicide attack them even more.

There may be one solution that works, which is to make it so that you need to earn resource points before getting in a vehicle like in WT. If your RP was tied to say your score, them you can make tanks and fighters like 1000 RP, and attackers 1500 RP. This will cut down on the amount of attackers, while also disuading suicide bombing. It might encourage more grey zone camping, but since there will be less tanks, it will be less of an issue.

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117

Perhaps if you had played the game longer than week, you would know by now that planes are pretty much universal problem.

Except that wooden walls / roofs doesnt exactly guarantee your safety. Another “issue” that has been around for quite sometime now.
But il forgive you, I dont expect you to know every issue of the game in less than week.

20mm
20mm1834×828 267 KB

Seems like you have confused this plane with AA gun. No wonder you were suggesting to throttle the AA gun.
But hey dont worry champ, anyone could mistake a plane / aa gun. After all they are almost identical.

Theres actually hit indicator in the game that tells when you hit something. Dont worry, you will see it eventually too, I know players that have played weeks without seeing hit indicator so you have nothing to worry about.

Except it isnt. Theres quite massive differency between hitting the plane and missing it. But as I said, you will learn to tell the differency once you see that hit indicator for first time.

Just to clarify with AA you mean the build-able flak cannon ?
Not the plane you earlier mistake as AA cannon ?
How would infantry suffer for having actual counter against planes ? You know those things that have wings and move in air ? Not the flak cannon.
If you are afraid that people start to throttle around with AA cannons, no thats impossible and you have nothing to be afraid of.
Flak guns are stationary.

Yeah, they are broken. Wings for example in the game aint one of the key components. While im quite sure couple hits from 20mm flak would tear off the wing and end the career of the said plane. Not in this game.
Now before you say anything about wingless planes you have seen in movies, those most likely are missiles. Not planes.

Fix the damage model, problem solved. Meanwhile restrict usage of them.
Doesnt exactly sound hard to balance.

Just like now, with that exception that they can get back in air rather fast due to not having any restrictions.

Thanks champ, any other good tips to share for us ?
Like avoid being killed ?
Perhaps try to keep your health above 0 ?

Totally solved the broken plane problem, thanks champ !

118

Wooden walls literally only exist in Moscow, and even then lying down prevents most of the damage.

Yeah, and those hit indicators have long been known to be unreliable, and also can’t tell you the diffrence between hitting the engine and grazing the wingtips.

You ever play Berlin? You ever try to move anywhere it that hallway where people build AA guns to mow down infantry? The issue with the AA gun is that no one uses it to shoot at aircraft, they use it to shoot at infantry. Buffing it would only encourage that, and forcing a dead zone would render it useless.

Yes, but grazing the wingtips with a 20mm will do about as much as kicking it.

Right now there are people who bother to go and re-arm. Moving the respawn point further back would just make people less people not bother with that.

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119

this thread is still going?

jesus

120

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