I remember it was extremely good before… was it because it had crazy reloading speed? Or it had less recoil?
Changed so much I don’t remember.
1 Like
M2 Carbine sawoff should once again be available to most classes. This will address the lack of a semi-automatic rifle in the Japanese 4 BR.
1 Like
I’d rather devs give a proper AR first… instead of stupidly lowering the one available to 4, giving it 30 rounds…
No, they did the right thing. Finally, you can play 4 BR Japan.
And the 30-round version will be added as a standalone weapon, most likely in the next Major.
1 Like
… will it, thought?
Also, why not this here update? Considering Japan does NOT have any br5 AR… their decision is rather dumb…
To be fair, assault rifles don’t really make much sense at BR 5 right now. The automatic rifle meta is much stronger.
1 Like
I like ARs…
Since their recent buffs, they’re deadly, precise and recoil less.
1 Like
I don’t remember the exact stats either. It definitely had an extremely fast reload speed. And the gun handling was excellent too.
2 Likes
We could have already gotten SF rifle nerfs. But run-and-gun lovers took advantage of the fact that the nerfs weren’t applied equally across all SF rifles. So the devs got scared and completely reversed that nerf.
3 Likes
There is no equality in that, there is also no authentic justification for that either. And it is also bad for game play.
The sad thing is that it could easily be fixed by simply adding the existing Gewehr 41 with ZF 41 to the tech tree since this weapon already exists in ENLISTED in the form of a premium squad, this one:
In our household we have bought this premium squad twice, once for the PC and once for the Xbox and we do not have any objection to the Gewehr 41 ZF 41 also being included in the tech tree because it needs to be there and should be there. The Gewehr 41 ZF 41 premium squad will still be worth the money because all soldiers in this premium squad are equipped with the Gewehr 41 ZF 41, something that can never be done in a free to play tech tree squad.
So the issue can be fixed, a ready made solution already exists and thus it should be fixed. It should have been fixed a long time ago, a long time ago.
More information on this topic is to be found here:
2 Likes
From an objective point of view the only thing that requires urgent fixing are game breaking bugs.
What is a big issue for one player, might be an unimportant issue for another player.
If a player only plays for one country in Enlisted than probably the only thing that interests that player is the tech tree of that one country. We in our household play all countries in Enlisted and for us the main thing is having authentic tech trees, especially at BR 3 which is at the moment the only BR that still more or less is a true WW2 BR.
I am not against anything authentic being added in or moved to BR 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5 for any country in Enlisted, but one perceived omission does not justify having another omission, or maintaining another omission.
Germany in Enlisted should have the Gewehr 41 ZF 41 in BR 3 and it can easily have it since it already exists in Enlisted, albeit with a premium squad. There are currently already other premium squads and event squads in Enlisted that have tech tree weapons, so this solution has already been implemented in Enlisted but not yet for the Gewehr 41 ZF 41. It is high time that it is implemented also for the Gewehr 41 ZF 41.
As to Japan: its tech tree is the least developed,. From an authentic point of view it is hard to add anything useful to the Japanese tech tree. All I can think of is more “captured weapons”. The alternative is either more paper designs, failed prototypes etc. or strange inauthentic additions, such as the “Panzerschreck” (R.Pz.B. 43 “Ofenrohr”) having been added to the USA and Japanese tech tree. Japan having a German Tiger in Enlisted also comes to mind.
Maybe Japan should never have been added to Enlisted, because the Japanese tech tree from an authentic point of view will generally never be able to compete with the tech trees of Germany, USA and Russia in Enlisted. But alas it has been added and as a result it will continue to be a problem to fill it with competitive items, from an authentic point of view that is. Which is what interests me. I will lose interest in Enlisted when BR 3 and lower will be filled with more and more Japanese fantasy items. Currently BR 4 and 5 in Enlisted have sadly already entered the realm of fantasy and fiction and continue to do so.
Be that as it may, the current state of the Japanese and other tech trees is no excuse not to add the already existing Gewehr 41 ZF 41 to the German tech tree. That addition is long overdue and an authentic ready-made, easily implemented simple solution thus already exists.
Calm down. No one is “threatening” you. I do not know if English is a language that you master, or if you are using a translator to communicate in English, either way no one is “threatening” you.
As to what I will or will not post, or will or will not do: that is up to me and me alone, and thus not to you, and since I do not live in a dictatorship, I more or less can post and do what I want.
As to the rest: I do not know where you get your “information” from, but you are simply misinformed.
Keep in mind that the German state archives and factory archives were purloined by the officials of the countries that occupied Germany in 1945, and many documents have since then been missing. Only those documents that have been returned to Germany are currently available for research, and additionally also those documents that are in the archives of the countries that occupied Germany in 1945 and which have been “declassified”. Many wartime documents are thus still missing and/or still “classified”. An example of that are the files of the OKH (= German Army High Command) which to this day remain in Podolsk in Russia and which are all still “classified”.
It is therefore difficult to establish for certain how many MP 28, MP 34 and MP 35 were exactly produced, when exactly and how many were issued to whom.
The MP 28 was purportedly produced from 1928-1940, the MP 34 purportedly from 1929-1940 and the MP 35 purportedly from 1935-1944. But documentation proving all this is difficult to find.
That means that the exact German WW2 production numbers of certain weapons are often not fully known, even to this day. A German wartime document listing the exact number of MP 38/40 produced during WW2 for example seems to be simply not available anywhere, even today.
Keep that in mind when reading anything about German weapon production, issue, use etc. during WW2.
Authors usually state that aproximately 30,000+ MP18, aproximately 60,000 to 80,000 MP 28, aproximately 40,000 MP 35/I submachine guns were produced.
The key word here is “approximately”.
Fact is that no one seems to know for sure.
They certainly were not standard mass issue Army (= Heer) weapons and since the Army supplied the first line combat units of the Waffen SS with equipment, neither of the first line combat units of the Waffen SS.
The MP 38 was submitted to the German military in 1938 and it was accepted into German military service in 1939 after which mass production started. In other words the MP 38 was already in mass production when WW2 started. Approximately 42,000 MP 38 submachine guns were produced before production shifted to the improved MP 40 model, which was submitted in 1939 and accepted into German military service in 1940. Approximately 1.1 million MP 40 submachine guns were mass produced between 1940 and 1945.
Additionally many sources state that approximately 26,700 MP 41 submachine guns were produced during World War II.
Again: the key word here is “approximately”.
Be that as it may the MP 40 production numbers were at least 1 million based on German wartime documentation. No other German submachine gun comes close to that number, not even “approximately”.
Authors usually state that approximately 40,000 MP 35/I submachine guns were produced between 1935 and 1944. But authors also state that there is no actual wartime production document which can prove that about 40,000 MP 35/I submachine guns were actually produced. Purportedly the number of MP 35/I produced is “deduced” from the serial numbers of surviving MP 35/I examples, according to authors. There is a source that states that only 1,800 MP 35/I weapons were delivered by the end of November 1943, after which production was stopped. Authors often state that the Waffen SS used the MP 35/I but wartime documentation makes clear that this really was not the case as far as the actual first line combat units are concerned.
One thing is certain in the German military of WW2: it was fighting a “poor man’s war”. Meaning it was short on everything, from raw materials and manpower to everything that was produced and issued. That means that a German unit had to make do with what it had been issued until the items it had been issued could no longer be used. The only possible exception was when certain key (heavy) equipment was clearly obsolete, such as a Panzer II in 1943 and even then it could still be found lingering around in certain units as is evident in the monthly reports of some German military units.
The result of this can clearly be seen in surviving German wartime records. Every military unit which was issued a certain item, generally had to keep using that item till it could be used no longer. So if a new uniform, firearm, vehicle etc. was introduced it was only issued either to newly established units or to existing units as a replacement for a no longer usable item. So if a unit had been equipped with MP 38s then it would generally not get any MP 40s unless they were needed to replace no longer usable MP 38s. There are some exceptions to this, such as units that were transferred from one front to another being ordered to hand over equipment to other units, but often this was not fully complied with by reporting equipment as being in need of “long term repair”.
What that means is that if the MP 18, MP 28, MP 34 and/or MP 35/I had been mass issued to a first line German combat unit, then that first line combat unit would still have many of them by 1945. The wartime documents however make clear that the MP 18, MP 28, MP 34 and/or MP 35/I were never mass issued to first line German combat units, not even those of the Waffen SS.
Weapons like the MP 18, MP 28, MP 34 and/or MP 35/I would generally be issued to second line, rear area, security, police, support, supply and/or construction units and not to first line German combat units.
The German military generally issued the newest, best and most modern equipment to their first line combat units. Second line, rear area, security, police, support, supply and/or construction units would generally be the ones that were issued outdated and/or sub-standard equipment, or late-war in some cases captured enemy equipment.
As far as the Waffen SS is concerned I already pointed out to you that primary source data is available which makes clear what sort of firearms they actually used, since every German first line combat unit submitted monthly reports with this sort of information. Service in the Waffen SS was by law military service, their pay was provided by the War Ministry and so was all their equipment. In other words they generally used what the Army (= Heer in German) supplied them, in other words the Waffen SS first line combat units generally used the same equipment that the German Army (= Heer in German) used.
Here are some examples.
-
- SS-Panzer-Division “LSSAH” - 31.12.1943
Note: In another report the MP 38 are listed as MP 38/40
-
- SS-Panzer-Division “Das Reich” - 1.10.1943
-
- SS-Panzer-Grenadier-Division - 1.3.1943
-
- SS-Panzer-Division “Wiking” - 3.7.1943
-
- SS-Panzer-Division “Hohenstaufen” - 1.6.1944
-
- SS-Panzer-Division “Frundsberg” - 18.9.1943
-
- SS-Panzer-Division “HJ” - 1.1.1944
As you can see NONE of these Waffen SS first line combat units have MP 18, MP 28, MP 34 or MP 35. The overwhelming majority of the MP they have are MP 38 / MP 40. If they had been mass issued MP 18, MP 28, MP 34 or MP 35 at any point in time, then they would still have had at least some of them.
The ONLY Waffen SS unit that I could find that actually lists having MP 35/I is a second line combat unit that was specifically raised to combat so-called irregulars/insurgents in Yugoslavia, which according to the international Hague Conventions Treaties of 1899 and 1907 (= law of war) were by law so-called illegal “franc-tireur”. The combat unit in question is the anti-tank battalion of the 7. SS-Freiwilligen-Gebirgs-Division “Prinz Eugen”. The small arms of that unit are what we nowadays call “personal defense weapons”, since the anti-tank battalion did not have any infantry squads, but it instead consisted of vehicle/gun crews and their rear-area support/supply elements.
- SS-Panzer-Jäger-Abteilung 7. “Prinz Eugen” - 31.1.1945
As you can see even this anti-tank battalion has only 3 MP 35/I compared to 19 MP 38 / MP40. So even in this unit the number of MP 35/I is irrelevant.
In Enlisted the MP 35/I - which in reality was produced in small numbers and never mass issued to first line combat units - has been made superior to the MP 38 and MP 40. So an inferior rejected weapon has been made superior in Enlisted to the MP 38 / MP 40, which in reality were judged to be superior to the MP 35/I and thus selected by the German Army (= Heer) for mass production and mass issue. This is just silly. Best solution for that is simply change the stats in Enlisted for the MP 35/I to those of the MP 40 and vice versa. That way the German tech tree will have their mass issued MP 40 in BR 3, and their MP 38 in BR 2 as well as have the MP 35/I in BR 2.
5 Likes
please get a job
1 Like
A few divisions’ assessment of its light weaponry is not really indicative when Germany fielded hundreds of divisions. Not to mention that these reports seem to be indicative rather than precise.
The “Prinz Eugen” report is pretty detailed and probably reflected reality well, while the rest seem to group together firearms (like “pistols”) as much as possible for simplicity sake.
Lol.
You are wrong: the primary source data is pertinent because the subject at hand is if MP 18, MP 28, MP 34 or MP 35 were actually issued to first line Waffen SS combat divisions, as is being claimed by others. The Heer (= German Army) divisions are not the subject, and so these divisions are not relevant in this respect. The Waffen SS fielded only a few (about 4, arguably 5) first line combat divisions from 1939 to 1941, so we need to examine only a few of these to see if they reported having MP 18, MP 28, MP 34 or MP 35.
Maybe you cannot read German or have never read reports like these, be that as it may: For whatever reason you seem to want to dismiss primary source data that does not fit your narrative, and even seem intent to try to put a “spin” on data to make it fit your narrative.
Be that as it may: You could not be more wrong.
I anything ALL the primary source data provided by me is more than “indicative”, it is in fact rather “precise”.
By all means clarify why, for example, the provided excerpt of the divisional report of the 12. SS-Pz.Div. “HJ” is “indicative rather than precise”, and why the excerpt of the report of the SS-Pz.Jg.Abt. 7. “Prinz Eugen” is “pretty detailed and probably reflected reality well, while the rest seem to group together firearms (like “pistols”) as much as possible for simplicity sake.”
Both reports list the exact number of Kar 98 k, the exact number and type of Sld (Selbstladegewehre = Gewehr 41 and Gewehr 43), Pistolen etc. And both group certain weapons as well.
Compare both reports on the MP 38/40:
- SS-Pz.Div. “HJ”
- 1 513 - M.Pi. 38/40
SS-Pz.Jg.Abt. 7. “Prinz Eugen”
- 19 Maschinenpisolen 38/40
So they both group the MP 38/40 together in their report.
Compare both reports on Pistolen:
- SS-Pz.Div. “HJ”
- 6 466 - Pistolen 38
SS-Pz.Jg.Abt. 7. “Prinz Eugen”
- 27 Pistolen 08
- 14 Pistolen 38
So the 12. SS-Pz.Div. “HJ” only was issued P 38 and the SS-Pz.Jg.Abt. 7. “Prinz Eugen” had been issued P 08 and P 38. Detailed and nothing wrong there.
The SS-Pz.Jg.Abt. 7. “Prinz Eugen” reports having a few “Beute Waffen”, which are “Captured Weapons”. The 12. SS-Pz.Div. “HJ” does not report having them, because at that point in time they did not have any. Nothing wrong there.
I supplied detailed primary source data on the small arms used by three of the four premier 1939 Waffen SS first line combat divisions, and of the newly raised premier 1940 Waffen SS first line combat division, in other words THE Waffen SS first line combat divisions that would still have had MP 18, MP 28, MP 34 or MP 35 in their inventory IF they would have been mass issued them at any point in time prior to 1943. And none of these Waffen SS first line combat divisions report having any MP 18, MP 28, MP 34 or MP 35 in their inventory. That is an irrefutable fact, a fact which you seem to feel the need to put a “spin” on in order to try and dismiss that fact.
These wartime monthly reports are not by any stretch of the imagination “indicative rather than precise”. Funnily enough that “spin” remark of yours makes clear that you did not even actually examine the data in detail, because you overlooked some interesting facts that are to be found in the data.
The divisions whose data was presented, were selected because of their relevance for the subject at hand. They are a mix of four of the 1939-1940 premier Waffen SS first line combat divisions and three of the new 1943 premier Waffen SS first line combat divisions. All of these are thus first line combat formations.
Except for the last one on which I supplied primary source data, which is an anti-tank battalion of a rear area second line Waffen SS combat division that was specifically raised to combat so-called irregulars/insurgents in Yugoslavia. As stated earlier that is also the ONLY Waffen SS unit that I could find that actually lists having MP 35/I. The primary source data of that unit lists the “personal defense weapons” used by the anti-tank battalion of that rear area second line Waffen SS combat division. So an anti-tank battalion consisting of about 600+ men of a rear area second line Waffen SS combat division had a grand total of only 3 MP 35/I. If anything the primary source data provided underlines what I wrote earlier about the MP 18, MP 28, MP 34 or MP 35: they were never mass issued to Waffen SS first line combat divisions. That is an irrefutable fact, a fact which you seem to feel the need to want to overlook and ignore.
I suggest you do some primary source data research on the subject yourself.
I look forward to any primary source data provided by you to “prove” that any of these first line combat divisions of the Waffen SS at any point in time were mass issued MP 18, MP 28, MP 34 or MP 35.
A lot of things are stated as “facts” in books written by authors that do not do their own primary source research in the archives, and that simply copy and paste what other authors have written. That does not make factually incorrect claims factually true however.
To give you an indication of the information provided in the divisional monthly situation reports, here is the full 1.1.1944 report (“Zustandbericht”) from the 12. SS-Pz.Div. “HJ”.
Many things can be found in reports like these if you are able to read them. For example the report makes clear that the division at that point in time had 1173 operational Machine Guns, of which 977 were MG 42 and the remaining 196 were MG 34. Additionally it had 68 MG 42 in short term maintenance (= meaning undergoing up till 3 weeks of maintenance).
2 Likes
If there were modern weapons in the game y’all would be classified leaking a la war thunder all up in this joint.
1 Like
Geheime Kommandosache = Ultra Secret.
The punishment for publishing this data 80 years ago would have been severe. Luckily this is all in the past and no longer classified.
Have you found any numbers of them in other SS divisions? Or other years? I don’t know much about the SS, but I figure the statement that so many guns were in use by them had to have come from somewhere.
I mean, even prominent figures like Ian McCollum from forgotten weapons say they were in use
No, I have not seen any evidence in any primary source documentation that the MP 35/I was mass issued to and/or used in large numbers by any first-line Waffen SS combat division.
Maybe it exists somewhere, but no one to this date has produced any evidence to this effect that I am aware of. So like “the Yeti snowman”, maybe it exists but unless someone can actually prove it through primary source documentation, then it is not likely.
The MP 35/I was by WW2 an antiquated design, it looked as such and was not really suited for mass production. The MP 38/MP 40 was everything the MP 35/I was not and could never be. That is why the MP 38 / MP 40 was selected for mass production and mass issue by the German “Heer” (= Army) to first-line combat formations, and not the MP 35/I.
Remember that the first-line Waffen SS combat divisions during WW2 were generally issued all their equipment by the German “Heer” (= Army). And the “Heer” generally only issued standard equipment to first-line combat divisions, there are few exceptions to that for example when a unit was still being formed/trained and before it was transferred to the front, or if it was used for static occupation/security duties etc.
You can try and find the information you are looking for yourself, either in for example the Bundesarchiv, or through the website of digital history archive:
Remember: a first-line combat division needs not only the weapons issued to its combat soldiers which are used by them in actual combat, but they also need reserve weapons of each type used by the combat soldiers because they require maintenance, repair and/or upgrades that are carried out by the support elements of a division. When they are undergoing maintenance, repair and/or upgrades the reserve weapons are issued.
Additionally for each weapon issued to and used by combat soldiers, spare parts need to be available in significant numbers, and the support elements of the division need to be trained how to repair, maintain and upgrade these weapons. The combat soldiers also need to be trained how to use and maintain a weapon, since many weapons require different operating and/or maintenance practices etc. For that to happen the trainers need to be trained. And for each weapon issued, official standardized documentation needs to be written, checked, printed, and issued in numbers. Especially in the German WW2 military, which was known for having all these things being highly regulated and organized.
As a result of all this second-line, rear area , transport, support, security, non-combat, construction etc. units are usually the ones issued with non-standard and/or captured weapons. They normally will not be in combat and will normally not have to use their weapons regularly, if at all. This is even more so the case with captured weapons when they used ammunition that was not produced in Germany in WW2. A situation where a combat unit runs out of captured ammunition, which is not produced in Germany in WW2, for its captured weapons is generally avoided for obvious reasons.
Even in a first-line combat division, the non-combat and/or support elements (for example supply truck drivers etc.) were usually the only ones issued any non-standard and/or captured weapons and vehicles.
As mentioned earlier, several sources state that only 1,800 MP 35/I weapons had been produced and delivered by the end of November 1943, after which production was halted. Then some sources state that production was started again sometime after November 1943, only for production to halt again in 1944. If 40,000 MP 35/I had been produced and delivered before and during WW2, then that means that 38,200 MP 35/I had been produced in less than a year, so up till 1944. These MP 35/I would then have had to be produced without the required mass production facilities for them being setup, since production was halted in November 1943. That is not very likely considering the rationalization measures taken in Germany regarding weapon production in 1943-1944.
If these 38,200 MP 35/I had indeed been produced in 1944, as implied by several sources, then these MP 35/I would supposedly also have had to have been mass issued in 1944 to Waffen SS first-line combat units, and thus they would show up in their monthly reports. It is a fact that these so-called 40,000 MP 35/I do not show up in the primary source documentation of Waffen SS first-line combat units at any point in time.
Then there is the number 40,000 MP 35/I and what it translates into.
Generally each German combat squad would have two MP, one for the squad leader and one for the assistant squad leader. Officers and NCOs generally were also issued an MP, and about 2 MP were issued to the crew of an armoured fighting vehicle.
As you can see in the primary source documentation that I provided, a typical Waffen SS division was equipped with anywhere from about 500+ up to 1,600 MP. A 1944 Waffen SS Panzer-Division at full strength consisted of about 21,000 men and was equipped with up to 1,600 MP. Other types of Waffen SS division were smaller in size, and depending on the type of division they generally varied in size from about 10,000 to 17,000 men. So a 1944 Waffen SS Panzer-Grenadier-Division , Grenadier-Division, Kavallerie-Division, Gebirgs-Division at full strength consisted of fewer men and they as a result also required and had fewer MP, from what I have seen they often had been issued about 500 MP to about 1,200 MP at best.
So if 40,000 MP 35/I had actually been produced and mass issued that would be enough to fully equip 25 Waffen SS Panzer-Divisions. In reality there were only 7 of them. In total the Waffen SS never had more than 38 divisions of which only about 21 were near full strength at any point in time. So if 40,000 MP 35/I had actually been produced and issued to Waffen SS first-line combat divisions, then 40,000 MP 35/I would be enough to fully equip all the combat squads, officers, NCOs and vehicle crews of the entire 900,000+ men strong Waffen SS with MP 35/I. That never happened, it is nowhere to be found in primary source documentation.
Just one quick calculation makes clear that 40,000 MP 35/I would have been more than enough to fully equip all 38 Waffen SS combat divisions in 1944-1945: 7x 1,500 MP + 31 x 900 MP = 38,400 MP.
The MP 35/I statement you refer to comes from authors that merely write things without doing any primary source documentation research. Many, many authors are really not true historians. A true historian does research using primary source documentation.Often authors simply blindly copy what other authors have written on a subject, without them doing any research of their own into the matter or even considering that the authors that they blindly copy from might have simply made up stuff.
The same is likely the case with Ian McCollum and the MP 35/I. And probably not just considering the MP 35/I.
The videos of the Forgotten Weapons channel are generally well-made, entertaining and interesting. Ian McCollum certainly supplies interesting information in his videos and on his website. Where all that information comes from, I do not know however. I assume he reads books about firearms and that he has a lot of practical civilian experience with firearms.
One example are Ian McCollum’s statements about the Mauser and Walther Gewehr 41 and the Gewehr 43 not being liked by the German troops and/or them being “bad” weapons. To this date no one has provided any evidence in the form of a WW2 German primary source document (= testing, training or combat reports) supporting this claim. Nor is there any well-known personal account by a German veteran supporting that often repeated claim in many English language books, websites and videos.
Many, many people simply repeat things without considering if that really is true, or without looking for credible primary source evidence to support a claim.
Books about firearms are not the same as books and primary source documents about first-line combat formations. It is one thing to read about the development and technical aspects of firearms, it is another to actually examine in detail what first-line combat formations reported actually being equipped with.
I supplied primary source information on what certain Waffen SS first-line combat formations were equipped with. Many authors and video makers do not take the time to look into that and simply repeat global statements made by other authors and video makers, as a result misconceptions and incorrect information then become “common knowledge”, and then they come to be regarded as “true”, even when they are not when compared to primary source documentation.
3 Likes