Replace the Kurogane jeep Type 11 machine gun by the Type 92 HMG please

Suggestions Weapons
17

The Type 92 HMG is only a HMG because the japanese classified it as such. The classification is quite different today: by today’s standards the Type 92 would be a LMG because it shoots a rifle cartridge, and today we call HMGs as such because they shoot high caliber rounds (.50 cal or bigger). But if you look at WW1, all the machine guns like the MG08, the Vickers, the Hotchkiss, the Maxim, etc… were all considered HMGs, but they used rifle caliber rounds. They were considered HMGs because, well, they were heavy. The same reasoning was applied to the Type 92 HMG. The DS-39 is the same: it was made to replace the Maxim, and there was still this mindset of “big machine guns with spade grips that could only be used on a tripod”. Of course, by today’s standards the DS-39 is considered a LMG, but it was not the case when it was adopted.

And changing the machine gun on the kurogane wouldn’t affect its stats much: the Type 11 “LMG” shoots 6.5mm rounds in a 30 rounds “mag” at 500 rpm, while the Type 92 “HMG” shoots 7.7mm rounds in a 30 round strip at 450 rpm. So basically in terms of stats, it would inflict a bit more damage but would have a slightly slower rof to counterbalance this.

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18

No problem with that, but as it is right now in the server, the visibility with this gun is very bad, and it looks very awkward, because the stock prevents the guy manning the Type 11 to fully stand, and he has to sit on the body of the car at the back. But with the spade grips of the Type 92, the guy wouldn’t have that problem and could likely be fully standing at the back of the car.

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19

Well they can add the scope and the 45 rounds magazine problem solved and a type 96 lmg on the second person next to the driver there is many options.

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20

The Type 91 tank MG (the tank version of the Type 11) has these 45 rounds and scope (it even had only a pistol grip when installed inside a vehicle, they only switched to a proper buttstock for infantry use), but the problem is the fact that we still don’t have it ingame yet as a proper gun. So I guess it probably won’t come before some time if the devs choose to put this gun on the kurogane. At least the Type 92 is fully modeled in game, so I guess switching the guns wouldn’t take too much work. But it would be cool to get the Type 91 one day.

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21

th Madsen
th Madsen1474×982 142 KB

Well on some vehicles they used various types of Madsen’s and other captured allied weapons I cant think of nothing else there is a Madsen with a drum for vehicles :

tank-version-of-the-madsen-light-machine-gun-with-a-80-v0-r0jcgz1ojv3b1

Or Vickers machine gun like on the Type 93 armoured car it will be best if they give us Type 93 armoured car :joy:

Type_93_Armoured_Car

6 man squads only for Japan xD If the apc can carry 6 people and take same slot why not have this vehicle with 6 people.

6 Likes
22

I think it needs to be reworked into this.

The version currently scheduled to be added to the game seems to be fake.

Or there is historical evidence it existed?

Is there any source?

The truck encyclopedia website just claims that?

1 Like
23

The truck encyclopedia, yes. There is also wikipedia that says a LMG could be installed through the windshield by lifting it, although wikipedia says that the Type 99 LMG could be used too, and there is no mention of a pintle mount there. While the truck encyclopedia only says it could be the Type 11 or Type 96 through the windshield, and the possibility of mounting a Type 92 HMG at the rear on a pintle mount.

Other than these two websites, I haven’t found yet any other mentions of MG installation on the kurogane.

I tend to trust the truck encyclopedia more, because as I said, this website is the “trucks section” of the tanks encyclopedia that is generally quite reliable: it is often used as a source for the WT wiki articles that are checked by a moderator before being allowed to be published there. And wikipedia is, well, wikipedia, it can be right but it can also be wrong.

There is a list of links used as a source (I guess) at the bottom of the truck encyclopedia’s article, you can check them if you want, because I haven’t done it yet myself.

Infos on jeeps/light vehicles weapons are hard to find, especially the axis ones. For example, I have NEVER found a historical pic from WW2 of the kubelwagen with a pintle mounted MG. If you have one, I would be quite curious to see it. I have struggled a lot to find the video of the kubelwagen with the zwillingssockel, and I haven’t found any pics of it yet, only this short vid.

And as I said in my first post, the same thing happened to the Ho Ha halftrack in game: only a few pics of this vehicle exist, and there isn’t a single one of them where a MG is mounted on it. We only have sources that say one or several MGs could be installed, and the type of MG is different depending on the sources.

I have also thought about a few other things about the Type 11 LMG on this pintle mount, so I have other arguments about why it doesn’t make much sense, I’ll try to write it here later.

1 Like
24

Waffen Arsenal 166 had some (page 20)
kubel

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25

Best I could find for Japan:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ImperialJapanPics/comments/pddr21/machine_gun_armed_civilian_car/

No idea what car this even is.
Looks more suited for combat then Kurogane (more roomy at least).

Germany could have gotten some bigger Kfz 4 like Horch 901 or Stoewer R 180 - those are at least more roomy and with better engines.

car
car1215×781 209 KB

Similar to this model found on Steel Mill maps in Enlisted.

3 Likes
26

Finally ! Thanks a lot, that’s a nice find ! I’m still happy to have found the vid of the kubelwagen with the zwillingssockel too. I still have to write another suggestion about this one too. If anyone wants to do it too, feel free to do it, it is about the ammo capacity and elevation of the zwillkngssockel : this mount is supposed to be an AA mount, but the elevation it has ingame right now is pretty poor, I think it should be buffed. Another problem is the fact that it looks like the ammo capacity is incorrect: ingame, it looks like there are 50 rounds in each gun (so 100 rounds in total), so both MG34 should be fed from the traditional and well-known 50 round drum mag. However, the model in game shows that both MG34 are fed from ammo boxes, which are way bigger, and can contain 150 rounds, so this would give us a “mag size” of 300 rounds instead of the 100 rounds atm. Even in WT the ammo count is correct, as you can see on the article about the S-38b : S-38b | War Thunder Wiki

So the devs must choose one of these two options:
-Either correct the model ingame if you don’t want to change the mag size to equip the drum mags instead of the ammo boxes. It is accurate, because the zwillingssockel was a mount that could be equipped with either the MG34 or the MG42. I saw pics with different configurations, sometimes it’s fitted with MG34s or MG42s, sometimes the stocks of the MG34s are removed, other times they are still present. And the feed system can vary a lot too: I have identified at least two types of ammo boxes for the guns, and sometimes these guns were still fed with the 50 round drums. I even saw a pic where the MG34s were fed with the patronentrommel “double drum” mags with an ammo capacity of 75 rounds.
-Or simply just correct the ammo capacity to the historically accurate 300 rounds instead of the 100 we have atm.

27

From what they say, the japanese car seems to be a converted civilian vehicle.

My guess is that it was probably taken during the late 20s/early 30s: the rims with holes on the car are generally typical of older vehicles, the more modern ones generally had rims without holes, or with holes that were much smaller. The MG seems to be a Type 3: the spades grips are higher on this gun compared to the Type 92, where the spades are located way lower on this gun. The barrel’s appearance seems to point more towards the Type 3 too. And finally, the Type 92 was adopted in 1932, so it would be logical that this pic could have been taken in the late 20s/early 30s, because the Type 92 wasn’t adopted yet, or wasn’t widespread enough yet.

2 Likes
28

I could also add that pics that were taken before WW2 often had this yellowish hue on them, while pics taken during or after WW2 were really more often purely black and white. And here we can see that the pic is a bit yellow, probably indicating an older type of camera from before WW2.

2 Likes
29

So far I too haven’t found any WW2 references for MG on Kurogane.

Just this Post Scriptum/Squad 44 rendition with Type 92 mg
image

They are usually meticulous with WW2 stuff, but still not sure if this ever actually existed.

1 Like
30

Now, for the other reason I wanted to add about why mounting a Type 11 on a pintle mount is unrealistic and even why the way it is done in game is wrong. First, let’s take a look at the tripod used to mount the Type 11:
image
image
image
As you can see, the tripod for the Type 11 is attached to the barrel of the gun. By that logic, if you put the Type 11 LMG on a pintle mount on a vehicle, the attachment point should be the same, right ?
Well, it turns out, as it is in game, that this is not the case, as you can see in the video:

As you can see, the Type 11 is attached to the receiver of the gun, and not to the barrel as it normally should.
And this is where it becomes completely unrealistic: The guy manning the MG is already pushed way too much to the rear of the car, and he is sitting on the body of the car, but if the attachment point of the Type 11 was historically accurate, and the pintle was attached to the barrel of the gun as it should be, then the guy would be pushed even further at the rear of the car ! Which would make this configuration, as you could guess, completely unusable.

The Type 92 on the other hand, doesn’t have this problem:

image
image2316×870 190 KB

As you can see, the gun is attached to the tripod way more “at middle length”, so the attachment point to the pintle mount of the kurogane should be there as well. And because of the fact that this machine gun doesn’t have any buttstock, but spade grips instead, if it was mounted on the kurogane, the gunner would be in a way more comfortable position, and could probably fully stand, instead of being completely pushed out of the car as he is right now in the current configuration with the Type 11 LMG.

I’ll add this to my first post with an edit.

3 Likes
31

Yeah, they tend to be way more realistic than enlisted. Can I use this pic to add to my first post in an edit ? I’ll say that you’re the one who found it, don’t worry.

32

Of course, the picture is from S44 wiki.

I also found this
image

But it still looks like artistic liberty

1 Like
33

Thanks. I’ve edited my first post.

34

I think that one is steyr 1500a.
image
image
It even had a variant with a 20mm cannon

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35

Looks like a match to me. If you’re interested in vehicles used by Germany during WW2, this website is quite good: https://www.kfzderwehrmacht.de/Homepage_english/homepage_english.html
It lists every vehicle the germans ever used in WW2, including the foreign ones. This website only covers Germany, and some vehicles listed there don’t have an article, but it is still a very complete list, even if there are not articles about all the vehicles listed there, so you have at least the name of the vehicle if you want to do your own research.

36

By looking at the website in my post just above, I have found a pic of the kubelwagen with a MG34 on a pintle mount. Interestingly, this one is equipped with the patronentrommel (75 rounds) mag:
image

3 Likes