Normandy Tank Unresolved (And Never Will Be Resolved) Situation, and Allies Playerbase. 20/04/22

Mess Room
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Both side’s balance are off.

It’s not just “Allies fault” or “Axis fault”.

It’s not about “Axis just wants Tiger/Panther/King Tiger/Maus/MBT-70/Leopard 1/Bismarck/Me-262” or whatever nonsense the Allies player are always coming up with.

The problem is with Darkflow itself.

The #Suggestion forum felt useless, in overall. A year later, as we send in daily complains of 100 things, with some of them being major issues. Such as the plane unbalance, plane damage model, overused repetitive same equipments (Kar98k, but Pre-war! Go Grind 180k EXP for this!) and yadda-yadda. I’m sure as you read this you can come up with the numerous other issues I have not yet mentioned.

The issue is with Darkflow itself losing touch to reality and to its own player base that is seemingly ‘dwindling’ as they add in more campaign choices. They focus too much on new contents like new campaign and new levels that they hardly fixed the numerous issue plaguing the game. The type of devs that just keeps moving forward, hardly looking back or stopping to even see the consequences of their actions.

Give or take in a year or two we will probably have 5 more campaigns with even more broken balance and divided player base to a point they cannot add any more because they’re just reusing equipment nonstop. What’s then afterward? An actual canonical ‘historically accurate and realistic’ Space campaign? I’m somewhat confident to say that many players finds the space April fool events to be more interesting than the actual campaigns itself in gameplay…

What kind of a genius comes up with stuffs like Pz.IV H against an M4A3E2 Sherman Jumbo? Or Panther against M10 GMC with the latter having their commander stuck exposed (And anytime he dies, he gets automatically replaced by another crew member, rapidly killing the tank) in this kind of game to a point its extremely vulnerable to any type of infantry? Oh, how about the fact that it’s Tiger 1 against M4(76) that is lesser than the firefly in ingame gameplay?

Don’t even mention the premium tanks. Darkflow is delusional if they think anyone is actually buying anything other than Sherman Firefly. Who needs StuG? Who needs Churchill?

You can make 1001 solutions. You can come up with an idea so great it might as well cure world hunger or cancer. But in the end, what matters is whether Darkflow listens or implement those ideas or note after much deliberation and changes. But the thing is, they don’t.

Forum Suggestion? More like Forum Decoration.

The issue I would like to also direct is the toxicity and the audacity of Allies playerbase in general. Jumbo had been dominating Normandy ever since OBT release by grayzone camping and overall being the dominant force of Normandy. Don’t even mention P-47D at level 27 or 28, which comes in the first reinforcement of Normandy content update. Allies were the dominant players in the game, and remember how they responded to the Axis plight.

“Shut up, just flank” - “It’s easy just aim port” - “Skill issue” - “Just shoot side”

And then the second content drops, and the Panther and MP-43 reveals itself. And everyone here should be familiar with what happens next.

“AXIS BIAS GERMAN BIAS” - “AXIS JUST WANTS TIGER/PANTHER/KING TIGER/MAUS!!!” - “GERMANY TOO OP NEED NERF” - “ALLIES SUFFERING”

“Just flank lol”

“ARGHHHHHHHHHHHTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT AXIS BIASSSSSS”

The double-standard reveals itself as Darkflow does their magic the best; Wrecking things up for either sides at random. The next thing we know, we have players proclaiming how Axis players are “German Supremist”. It’s gotten quite extreme to a point the moderators have to shut down multiple posts because people are just spouting nonsense and ‘hate speech’ against Axis that arguably we can probably invent a new word within Enlisted playerbase; Anti-Axisism (A player who is hostile to or prejudiced against Axis player).

It sounds funny, then you slowly realize it isn’t. People are actually doing this for some reason. Some are trolls, but many are extremely genuine with audacity that is unseen before.

“Germans can’t have Tiger 2! That’s OP! German Bias! But if Allies players can own captured Tiger 2, that would be historically accurate!”

Unironically, yeah. This is their belief. This grown to a point that the moment a prominent Axis-hater was banned for extreme hate speech against Axis (Remember what I said about “German supremist”? That comes from them) that his friends immediately tries to round up supports and suddenly plays victim. They started gaslighting everyone about it.

“Yes, he always do that, that’s who he is. But that is not a problem. He spam? Well, what is spam? What is spamming? What is trolling? What is deviating against the rules?”

“He has an intolerable behaviour, but didn’t Axis provoke him?”

Incase you guys are that curious, I still have the screenshots before the mods had a migraine and deleted the post(s).

As far as I can see, the community have a two front war to deal with; The ‘declining’ condition of Darkflow as a dev, and the extremely entitled and toxic part of community that just loves to wage war as they target Axis players. I wasn’t joking about Anti-Axisism might ends up into an actual word or joke for this forum, because it’s already around.

It’s a real issue now.

Also, moderators. Please don’t ban the post just yet for whatever 1001 rules you have. Let this simmer up for now.

I’ll continue more in the comment regarding both topics.

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Another issue is the lack of Allies player learning curve in the 101 Art of Tanks.

Why, you ask? They were spoilt by the Jumbo.

Back since OBT and pre-Panther update, they can;

  1. Penetrate everything Axis throws at them (Puma, Pz III N, Pz IV J, Pz IV H)
  2. Protect themselves frontally from 95% of the shots (That is not MG port) from Pz IV upgunned cannons
  3. Grayzone camping from spawn so Axis tankers cannot flank or TNT them.

What changed? The Panther, it can;

  1. Penetrate everything Allies throws at them (Stuart, M8 Scott, M4A2, M4A3A2, Sherman Firefly, M10 GMC, Churchill, M4(76), yadda-yadda…)
  2. Protect themselves frontally from 75% of the shots from the upgunned Sherman and M10 GMC
  3. Grayzone camping from spawn so Allies tankers cannot flank or TNT them.

This power balance, this radical shift? It broke Allies tanker. Why? Axis players had to learn and improvise 101 as they struggled to take out a Jumbo. They advance, they flank, they carefully aim, they die. And with each fights and with each deaths, they keep learning.

Jumbos don’t. They just stop by their spawn and fires nonstop with their seemingly impenetrable armor from 100-200m away from CP, 80% of the time in Grayzone.

Hard times creates strong men, Easy times creates weak men. Axis struggled and learned due to the broken balance and Jumbo spam. Allies players just laughed in their seat as they spammed everything they see, unstoppable.

Now, combine experienced enlisted tanker with something like a Panther, against a ‘noob’ with a Jumbo who probably doesn’t even understand what does ‘angle’ means in the book of tanks.

Allies tankers have no learning curve. That is why they are no longer as ‘strong’ as before. Just like how stuarts are constantly shooting Panther in the red-crosshair frontal hull of panther from 200-300m away. “Sniping the sniper”, as some would probably say.

You don’t see often stuarts trying to flank better tanks. They charge frontally.

You see more often veteran players with Pumas, ditching their Pz IVs for faster mobility so they can flank Jumb and ammo rack it from the side as it panics because it doesn’t knows or understand what to do.

That is a part of the ‘Normandy tank unbalance’.

"The political correctness of the forum is that if Allies loses, its unbalanced. If Axis loses, its skill issue."

And it’s sure as hell easier to blame the opposing side- The Axis players, than grabbing a mirror and looking at a part of the actual problem; yourself.

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Also, I love how this is a thing.

Jumbo camping in grayzone
Axis : Stop spamming jumbo in grayzone
Allies : Just flank lol

Panther drops, also camping in grayzone
Allies : Stop spamming panther in grayzone
Axis : Just flank lol
Allies : Why are you like this? Isn’t this is toxic? Camping is bad right? How can we play? How can we enjoy the game? What can we do against that tank? What kind of a person are you?

See the difference? Jumbo camping = normal. Panther camping = bad.

And they say they are not biased.

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Design choice™

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Absolute Darkflow™ moment

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yep.

this summs it up pretty well.

:frowning:

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It’s funny, this is almost the first time I think I’ve seen someone who actually played in the summer against jumbo spam.
Yeah, back in the day it seemed totally unfair. Sturmpistole was a mockery, pz4 allowed you to make 3-4 fewer mistakes in combat against jumbo. It was hard, but I was winning, though my nerves were frayed as I wanted to rest after some games.
Now, it seems to me everything is much better. Yes, the Axis tanks have become stronger allies tanks (if we’re talking about the Panther and Tiger), but first of all the new Sherman can handle them, and secondly the allies have ultimatum aviation with a huge number of accurate missiles (as opposed to Axis missiles) and bombs.
I would say this is a prime example of asymmetric balance. It may or may not like it, but it works.
I don’t see the allies having a problem destroying a tiger or panther with 6-10 missiles, usually the player on the axis tank can’t save himself from it.
And yes, sometimes I too feel like people for some reason associate the Axis IRL not the best reputation with the players here. It’s unavoidable.
Recently there were 2 events: the AVS was stripped of 3 magazines (though they gave it back later), which was fair under the rifle ammo rules and the weakening of the mp43, which the developers didn’t say anything about.
At the time of the AVS nerve, everyone shouted that this is not allowed, although the basic rules say that you have “2 magazines or 30 rounds, whichever is greater”. But when I made a topic about how mp43 became SMG with damage barely higher, and that all weapons should get 20% damage bonus, otherwise you get a logical hole, that’s it, squealing allies “it’s already good, yes I played with it when I picked it up from the floor”

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Most of these issues would just fix by themselves if maps were larger or they would remove/nerf grey zones, forcing everyone to advance, thus no longer abusing frontal armour. And light tanks would actually have a chance against heavy ones. On a side note, I’ve gained so much valuable experience in Normandy from being stuck with Pz IV variants for a long time in the campaign that at some point Jumbos just became an average target for me, and especially now that I finally got Panther, it’s just pure joy.
extra notes: 80% of Jumbo players have tunnel vision, and NEVER protect their sides. And an average iq of 7.5.

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The pain of Axis is left unheard by the wails of Allies babies.

The average Allies forum user stopped reading at this sentence. “Axis Bias” and they ignores the rest of the paragraph. Unironically this is what they do.

“B-But you get 4x rockets with slightly bigger payload than our P-38’s! How come our top fighter with 10 rockets with a 250kg bomb is too OP?!”

If Allies gets nerfed : “It’s bad, we’re suffering” If Axis gets nerfed : “Too bad, it was too good. Axis can only use MP-28 anyway for historical accuracy, realism, blablabla… Because we said so.”

Exactly as I said. Axis players are gigachad-learning from trials and tribulation and they become skilled tank users. Give them a better tank that can evenly fight allies tanks on even ground, or even a slightly superior tank? Allies armor stomped off from existence.

Give Allies tanker a little hardship, and they’ll fold. “Oh, how come my Jumbo gets flanked by that Puma?! I was standing still and only traversed my turret, and turned my hull around and exposing to him my side armor, especially the lower hull part! German Bias! Axis too OP!”

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I was just drinking tea at this very moment, and I was forced to read everything from start to finish. Thanks for your manifesto.

I understand your frustration. I have advice for you - Just flank bro! (lol)

On a serious tone, I can say frankly that I feel doubly about Enlisted at the moment. That period when I was super hyped about the structure of this game (when I joined during the closed beta period) is already pretty much gone. At that time, the dedication of the developers was felt. Updates were frequent and surprising. Feedback has always seemed to be listened to. Nothing seemed rushed.

I can say that thanks to that dedication, in my opinion, the Moscow campaign was a real candy in the very beginning. It seemed that I had finally found a WW2 game that will have a serious development process, very engaging to the community. That I would finally get rid of the H&G nightmares.

But from the moment the gold system was tested in the game, when the Berlin test lasted a week? (If I’m not mistaken) when you just start to notice where the developers’ priority is really going, and how they don’t even try to fix the existing problems addressed from the closed beta period (and even earlier), you just go on with the caravan, picking up your own fun factor (which is still strong in Enlisted, along with the atmosphere) and you try to adapt to that new model without trying too much.

We now have a situation where all kinds of premiums, monetization and the like, have become the rule in this game, not the exception. (kinda)

And as I mentioned before, I don’t consider myself a free player. I buy premium squads that I really like collecting, and I don’t spare money for gold, and I probably won’t spare money for the current fully overpriced customization system (I just love that RP factor). Because you’re a believer in supporting developers in this way with the resources they need to continue to improve the game, but you’re still seeing the game move forward in very small increments over time, and monetization increases because people like me are that giving their money to them, only further encourages them to do nothing. But can you stop this now?

I think the future of Enlisted will be like this - very not friendly towards new players, fully upgraded meta weapon squad dedicated veterans, noob stomping, where developers are less and less focused on problems and more focused on new toys, yet somehow still fun game -play type of a game.

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Stop play Normandy or deal with it, Yankees and Wehraboos.
Thats all what you can actually say to them… (why flagging this)

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this is completely false because it ignores the cupola and overmatching which BTW the puma can do at the same angle that the m10 can against panther

yeah because the axis complained that something could actually compete against the bf110g-2 :rofl:

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Allies 2021: Hahaha Axis is weak and they can’t do anything, but that one FG 42 is a little too OP. FG 42 gets nerfed with ammo count to 20/20.

Allies 2022: After maxing or getting tired of their campaign, they finally try the Axis side. Upon reaching the level for FG 42, they complain about the lack of ammo in the weapon and how their trusty M2C has way more in reserve.

This double standard is sadly what is bringing this game down in terms of quality. If I was a developer, I would only listen to people who complain about a specific campaign that both sides are equally leveled. I do not care about bias or perceived bias; I am a statistics person to the core. If one side has an unfair advantage, give it time and it will be equalized in some way or another.

To further prove both our points - this. If an Axis “main” or someone, like myself, who plays every faction on all campaigns, the Axis used to be the underdogs on every campaign before… Battle Pass 3 or 4? (somewhere in there) and it took a lot of effort on learning map design and flanking routes to take out these pesky gray zone tankers whom always seem to have tunnel vision.

Allies Normandy was my last campaign to max out and when I was using the Jumbo, many times my brain shut down as I only needed to look straight. The only times I actually died was by…

Doing exactly this from my end, and to pesky tanks on the opposition myself as the cannon for the Puma is really good. It is a glass cannon tank all the way, but many people who use it do not take advantage of its speed and assume its another tank to slowly move with or stay in position.

My best advice for players who want to get better: download OBS or any recording software. Recording all of your games for one playing session. Win or Loss - watch them over to see what you could have different with the gift of hindsight (and while doing it, clip out your best moments in some DEW as well for good measure). I have been doing it since January of this year and it made me better on learning new rally placements and etc.

All and all - good post.

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To be honest, Normandy’s balance is mostly fine as of right now, the devs only really need to change a few minor things such as fixing the P-38 G bug. Also giving the M4a2 APCBC would be nice, as well as maybe making Pz IV J a Pz IV G both for historical accuracy.

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Or making the J into literally anything else

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It really isn’t Jumbo players, that’s just Enlisted players in general.

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Enlisted

Enli$ted

$$$$$$$$

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In fact, I don’t see that the killing radius of the German missiles is higher (at least to be noticed). Maybe 5-10%, but that’s nothing.
In return they have 2 problems: they are few and most importantly: they fly slowly, inaccurately and parallel. Because of this, if you aim at a tank, one missile will fly to the left and the other to the right. Soviet and U.S. missiles are much better.

In fact, the jumbo is still the best antipersonnel tank since the 75mm cannon with quick reload allows you to destroy infantry efficiently.
Now it is not ultimatum and requires support, although from a distance of more than 50 meters even a panther should aim at the MG slot on the hull.

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Instead nerfing fg devs should have given soviets and brits semiauto rifle with 100 ammo in other campaings while keeping german semis 30 or 40 ammo in those campaings… Obviously it worked fine in normandy

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The error of the p38 is that it uses fighter pilots, not that it is a fighter in the bomber slot.
The 6 missiles on the fighter are “fair game”.