back in the day people agreed that Jagdpanzer IV has too much armor for being a BR3 vehicle - but today Allies and Soviets both have tools to deal with this vehicle - while Germany desperately needs a BR3 vehicle that has more than just 50 mm of BR1 armor.
two years ago T34 and Sherman would have massive issues dealing with Jagdpanzer IV effective armor of around 100mm (± depending on the angle and elevation of the vehicle) but today we have:
KV2 - can kill even Tiger II H
T34 57 - has 140mm Panzer IV like pen
M10 - can take out both Panther and Tiger I
and Shermans got better ammo some months ago, AP HE with around 100mm of penetration.
Panzer IV simply has too poor armor and gets taken out by Allied massive post pen damage in one single shot - not to mention it gets taken out by even BR1 tanks, while KV1 and such bully low BR Germany.
Of course that doesnt mean Panzer IV J/H is bad in general, it has infantry support benefits, I personally consider top mounted MGs as a massive plus for a vehicle, but in direct tank to tank combat it does feel weak.
The KV-1 isnt much better in that regard sure, but it is at least possible to pixel hunt with the KV-1, not to mention the KV-1 also justifies a BR3.5 for it to move up into.
imagine we ignore all current BR1 vehicles, and move many current BR2s to BR1, while moving current mid BR3 to BR2 ( like Panzer IV F2, and first T34), that could allow for lowering some BR4 stuff to BR 3 aswell.
In the end, in my opinion, KV1 and Panther create the biggest issues.
Thinking about this further than just the first step, Jagdpanzer IV L48 with 60mm of sloped armor would practically be immune to most BR3 vehicles - SOME can defeat it frontally, but nothing is more annoying than shooting first and multiple times but still loosing the fight.
I think the ONLY thing that makes sense is to give Jagdpanzer IV L48 also 80mm of armor - just like its BR5 L70 version - which is historically speaking even correct.
On the contrary of people saying this tank can’t be killed at BR3, This would be much like the Tiger I vs Jumbo conflicts due to the muzzle brake present on the JPZ IV. The sherman series with the stabilizer would make rolling shots on the muzzle brake to shatter the cannon easy while making yourself a hard target to hit, then track it and either kill the crew as they jump out, or flank it if possible, non stabilized tanks may have a harder time doing that, however not impossible. Not to mention, It’s not “immortal” either not by a long shot, because BR3 gains access to the M9 bazooka/Panzerfaust 60 as well which absolutely shreds the tank from the front even and while yes in down tiers the enemies may struggle, it is possible to knock out the transmission of the tank with a lower front plate shot even with an M1 bazooka. However, Enlisted provides various other common anti-tank options such as Guerillas. I believe this tank being reduced to T3 makes sense and adds a bit more variety to Germany rather than most everyone just choosing a Panzer IV H or PZ III N. I would love to see this post get forwarded and put into action! It’s a great suggestion in my eyes!
It is not really comparable. The Jagdpanzer4 can easily pen br3 Sherman while Tiger1 need to aim for small weakspot in order to pen the Jumbo.
A bunch of weird points. Why should at weapon and guerilla effect the br of the tank? The br of at weapon should be affect by the tank it can penetrate not the other way around. And for the guerilla, it can easily kill most tank in the first place.
I’ll be honest, in post I forgot the pen value of the JPZ vs M4, but I will say the idea of taking it out like a Tiger I still stands. Also it trades its turret for that extra armor, the moment you blow out the JPZ’s transmission/tracks it’s basically over.
As for the other points, I am just making it a point that sure tank vs tank combat may be a bit challenging, however it’s getting lowered into a generalized tier bracket, so all things of that tier should be included and considered, especially if we’re talking about something moving down in tiers. I feel mentioning its Infantry opposition of rocket launchers was fair; As well as Guerillas which you agreed have no struggle dispatching tanks.
Because I think a tank’s performance against infantry is more important than its performance against other tanks in a game where 90% of the vehicle combat is against infantry.
Frontal Armor is very important especially with how popular gray zoning is. Tanks are just a useful benchmark as they’re one of the more consistent counters. My issue more so is I would much rather see hetzer at br 3 to fill that niche not jagdpanzer as it has more counters and a larger profile