That’s the rigid definition of a PDW, the wider definition is so wide it basically removes all meaning:
Very short/compact assault rifle, SMG, or traditional PDW are PDW’s…
And I never claimed it to be “just another” intermediate cartridge, most cartridges aren’t “just another x” (although there are exceptions, looking at you .308 Marlin).
I know your point is that it’s different from the necked down ones, but my point is that it’s still an intermediate cartridge, despite being a very special/unique/underwhelming one.
.345 Winchester Self-Loading and .351 Winchester Self-Loading are also intermediate cartridges just as examples in the same category as .30 Carbine. And there are a ton of intermediate cartridges that are very different from both .30 Carbine and 7.62x39/7.92x33/5.56x45. And if they made a select fire rifle out of any of those, it would by definition also be an assault rifle.
Best example to show how different two intermediate rifle cartridges can be is to compare 5.56x45 with .458 SOCOM:
wasnt the entire wehrmacht armed with k98 carbines ?
Hence the carbine doesnt exactly automaticly mean PDW, while PDW weapons are pretty much always for artillery, drivers, MP’s what ever troops that arent expected to be see combat regularly.
Which is the task M1 crybine was made for, regardless it made it to frontline use too, it was invented for those who arent expected to be in combat.
so what about 6.5x50 arisaka ? It meets every intermediate cartridge requirements but is still classified as rifle round.
Aka the only reason why fedorov avtomat isnt assault rifle.
Yes… Because of the Treaty of Versailles, but because the doctrine of “long is better” is literally from the 1850’s and earlier, a carbine in a full powered rifle cartridge is just as accurate and deadly as a rifle with that same cartridge, and is less cumbersome, and better in close quarters. But even then the K98k is a carbine in name only, it’s barely able to be classified as a short rifle.
PDW’s are also for close range combat against armor, like commando/special forces situations, specifically room and house clearing. It’s why the need enhanced armor piercing capabilities.
Carbine is quite broad term and far as I know it doesnt exactly have so strict requirements as intermediate cartridge or assault rifle.
Just like rifle cartridge is as well quite broad term, from .22LR to .950 JDJ
so with what logic these are intermediate cartridges ?
With quick glance all of them seems to be either rifle or carbine rounds.
Sure, but special forces usage is quite niche. Unlike the rear troops for who the pdw was kind of designed for.
Regardless, one could argue the only ones who actually use it is the special forces and some other niche guard troops.
Fair enough, that was another guy. Just assumed you agreed with the sentiment, which was wrong of me.
Yes, technicly, it is a “intermediate cartridge”, as in “it’s a rifle round lesser than regular service rifles”, that’s technicly correct, but as I have mentioned .30 Carbine is clearly different enough to be passed over in favour of 5.56, which inherently means they can’t be as similar as you might think it is… it’s also not really that helpful to group them all together in this way, a too wide and imprecise category will eventually become a useless term to use, which is why I standardised on “carbine” “intermediate” and “full-power” cartridges, they’re not something I dreamt up and I hope you understand/understood what I mean/meant when I use/used them.
Lets just cut this conversation short… I don’t think that US carbines either needs or should have the same damage as 8mm Kurz in the game, for reasons I’ve already explained. For as long as the game makes differences between such statistical irrelevancies as 7.7 Arisaka or 8mm Mauser, things that are obviously more different like 8mm Kurz and .30 Carbine should remain different too.
I just want the game to pick a road, and stick to it.
Carbine is, depending on the country and language, either:
A short rifle
Shorter than a short rifle
That’s it
(In some premodern contexts, it meant Pistol Caliber Carbine, such as with the first lever action carbines where they were either called carbine or musket)
(Then the Germans didn’t seem to give a shit, the vz. 33 is more than a decimeter shorter than the K98k and was still labeled a “Gewehr”)
Let me list 10 random intermediate cartridges and we’ll see if you spot the pattern:
5.7×33
11.48x43RB
11.63×40RB
7.62×45
7.62×33
7.92×33
5.6×39
6x38
7x33
8.9x34SR
Now compare it to 10 random service full power cartridges:
7.65×53
8×50R
7.62×51
7.5×55
7.7×58
7x57
7.5×54
11.35x52R
8×50R
6.5×50SR
Do you see a pattern here or do you need me to point it out to you?
I don’t want it to have the same damage as 8mm Kurz… I just want the M2 and M2A1 to be classified as Assault Rifles because they fulfill the definition:
Select Fire rifle
Intermediate Cartridge
And I don’t care about the thing everyone brings up about 300 yard effective range, that’s a US Army adoption criteria on top of the definition. If we followed that definition then Iraqi and Pakistani AK’s suddenly aren’t assault rifles anymore because they can’t hit shit…
It’s only that… that was what the discussion was about…
I guess we’ve been arguing over nothing, huh?
That would be unfortunate, as that would mean removing them from regular soldiers, something I’m opposed to, they’re already more limmited than they were in history.
Actually, I’d like the US carbines to be used the same way as the German VG 1-5 currently is, which is to be accessible on every soldier, as that’s what was historicly intended and done (tankers, pilots… you know the drill, they all used them). I’d do this by taking the current “Volkssturm Rifle” class in the game, rename it to “Carbine”, and simply apply it to fitting guns in the game, here’s my suggestion about that, maybe I could convince you to adopt this change instead?
Just saw that you had already commented on it in the past, you didn’t seem quite too keen on the idea then (considering you only mentioned one thing, and didn’t address the idea in totale).
Well I came into this to tell Wilcario to stop with the whole “it’s just a fat pistol cartridge” shtick which pisses me off every time I see it
I don’t agree that it should be called “Carbine” as that’s actually a pretty flimsy definition, being literally about length and differing between militaries, I’d argue it should be called “Light rifle” or something like that. And Volkssturm rifle includes VG. 2 which is just a rifle.
Well, “Carbine” is catchier… but as long as you agree with the base idea for the game (US carbines on all soldier classes) you can call them blow guns for all I care.
Not in game, unless they changed it (this was the case at the time, I double checked when making the suggestion), the VG 2 is just listed as a rifle, whilst the VG 1-5 is listed as a “Volkssturm Rifle”.
It actually kind of is, from what I can find there are no intermediate cartridges that are longer than 50 nor shorter than 33, pretty much no pistol cartridges above 33 (and that’s just magnum cartridges), and there are basically no full powered rifle cartridges below 50. From this we can conclude that it actually is about dimensions, at least by correlation, because if we were going with power, then .458 SOCOM would be on par with a lot of mid-powered full power rifle cartridges, but it still counts as an intermediate, and it’s the same with .50 Beowulf.
And even with power, 6.5 Arisaka is comparable to some loads of .30-40 Krag, or do we somehow draw the line for “intermediate” at exactly where the 6.5 Arisaka is? At 2666 J? When the strongest intermediate cartridge from around the time maxes out at 2455 J (which is on par with 7.62×52R meaning if anything it’s an overpowered intermediate), whilst 7.62x39 maxes out at around 2200 J for the time, which is actually really strong for an intermediate, most don’t go past 2000 J. So any way you slice it, 6.5 Arisaka is not a goddamn intermediate, not by dimension and not by power.
Some grendel 6.5 loads are over 2.6k
As well fair share of intermediate cartridges are necked unlike .30 carbine, Aka theres plenty of similarities that doesnt fit to .30 carbine that fits the others.
This is more of a question either 6.5 arisaka is high end intermediate cartridge or .30 carbine aint low end intermediate cartridge.
It’s pre-modern… As in it’s not relevant to this discussion, it’s black powder for fuck’s sake…
Everyone is wrong except you, by the decree of TUSUPOLISI69 the following cartridges are no longer fully powered rifle cartridges but are instead intermediate, because he says so:
6.5x50SR Arisaka
.30-40 Krag
.30-30 Winchester
.30 Remington
6.5×52 Carcano
6.5×54 Mannlicher–Schönauer
6.5×58 Vergueiro
7.35×51 Carcano
Etc. etc. etc.
I’m done with this shit, this is just like with the PDD-34/38, you demonstrate that you know nothing, and when pointed out how and why you just ignore it and spin it as another way of “but I’m right though”.
This’ll literally go on forever, I’m done.
No need to be butthurt for genuine question.
You still failed to answer what kind of LQBTBBQBBC trans-gender magiccery these murrican cartridges posesses as they can change from rifle to intermediate with no clear explanation while for example the anime cartridge cant.
“Because less than 50mm”
With that logic we could say most used intermediate cartridges are necked, unlike .30 carbine.
Well clearly ? Otherwise I wouldnt ask with what logic these murrican rounds have some transgender-cartridge rights.
But do please explain.
