Gun balance megathread

Suggestions
1

Hi all,
Welcome to another megathread!

In this one, I want to suggest a weapon balancing metric. It is not tied to the current state of the weapons, but can be applied to them, if enough of the community agrees on them. I will not include numbers, only generalised metrics such as short, medium, or long ranges, and 1,2,3 etc shots to kill on torso hits (neutral damage modifier, head hits deal more damage, limb shots deal less damage)

For this thread, I will only talk about bullet based infantry vs infantry weapons. Vehicle weapons, specialized AT/mortar weapons, explosives, etc, are not included.

All weapons are split into a handful of abbreviated catagories:
BA: bolt action rifles
SA: semi automatic rifles
CB: carbines: pistol caliber semi auto rifles
P: Pistols
LMG: rifle caliber automatic weapons
SMG: pistol caliber automatic weapons
SG: shotguns

BAs have the purpose of providing long range firepower. As such, they should lose out against most weapons at short distances due to rate of fire when missing a lethal shot: they should one shot on torso or head at any but the longest ranges.

SAs are the bridge between BAs and SMGs. They have less damage than BAs, at 2 torso shots to kill at up to medium ranges. With 3-5 hits to kill at long ranges. They have high recoil so they need skill to compensate between each shot at short ranges.

CBs are like SAs, but deal less damage in return for larger magazine capacity and less recoil. They require 3 hits to kill at short-mid range, then 4 at mid, and 5-8 at long.

Ps are just like CBs, but have smaller magazines in return for being a secondary

LMGs have 2 subcategories: walking fire (WF) and bipod (BP). Both should do the same damage as SAs, but have higher recoil. WF LMGs can be fired on the move but only have small box magazines, while BP LMGs can only be fired from bipod mount but have large belts to fire for longer, as well as having less recoil thanks to the bipod.

SMGs are like CBs and Ps but have more recoil in return for the automatic fire mode

SGs should provide consistent one hit kills even when not hitting torso at short range, but with a steep falloff to 2 hits at short-mid range

For balancing individual weapons of the same type, I propose the following:
Weight affect ADS (aim-down-sights) time, aka the time you need to get a clear sight picture after clicking the aim button. It also affects how fast the soldier readies the gun after turning around
Longer barrels generally lead to a heavier gun, but also increase the time of the gas affecting the gun, so increasing recoil. The weight however generally balances that out, so I will not include diffrent ammounts of recoil based on barrel length alone.

- Bolt action rifles:
Germany:
Gewehr 33: Short / light rifle. Should have slightly higher rate of fire but steeper damage falloff (less damage at range)
Kar98k: Main rifle with balanced stats
Vz 24: Slightly shorter than K98. So between G33/K98
Pre-war Kar98k: Bit heavier due to bayonet. Would offer increased bash damage but would be more sluggish to carry around
Kar98k /w launcher: Much heavier and the added devices would make it harder to cycle the bolt due to akward balance of the gun. Slower rate of fire as a result.
Soviets:
M1907: once again the shortest, similar to G33
M91/30: main / balanced
Dragoon: much longer and has a bit sturdier (heavier) frame, allowing it to maintain its damage over greater distances, but is heavier.
M1938: As short as the M1907, but has a diffrent sight. Can have very similar stats
M1895: Lever action, making it fire much faster. But the cartridge it uses has less power so it deals less damage (between bolt action and semi in both fire rate and damage)

- Semi automatic rifles:
Germany:
Gewehr 41 (Mauser): Rather heavy for a rifle, has very little recoil thanks to it weight, but is clunky as a result.
Gewehr 41 (Walther): Much lighter, but has increased recoil.
Soviets:
SVT-38: Similar to G41M
SVT-40: Similar to G41W

- SMGs:
Germany:
MP28: Very compact, but has enough weight thanks to the wooden stock to negate most recoil. Has quick reloads thanks to its light 20rd magazine. Alternatively, could use the TM-08 32rd drum magazine, offering increased ammo count but slow reload.
MP38: Used a lot of machine parts, making it more sturdy, leading to better accuracy and sliightly less recoil than the MP40.
MP40: Comparable to MP38 as seen above. Alternatively, could become the MP40/II, which would hold 2 magazines side-by-side in the gun, giving 64 rounds of capacity, but ~3x reload time compared to a single magazine.
Soviets:
PPD(box): Very compact and has a good weight for its size, giving very good recoil management.
PPD(drum): Heavier due to the drum. The drum was known to be somewhat unreliable at times, leading to much longer reload times, similar to MP40/II.

LMGs:
Germany:
ZB-36: Akward to use due to the top mounted magazine leading to long reload times. Has a bipod for deployment and offers decent handling outside of deployed positions
MG13: Much heavier than th ZB-36 and has issues with handling when not deployed due to the lack of a proper holding spot up front, which leads to very high recoil when not deployed. Has quicker reloads.
Soviets:
Madsen: In between of ZB-36 and MG13

If there is any other weapon you guys think should be in here, tell me.

I will edit this over time, feedback is appreciated

1 Like
2

Guns should be balanced by caliber of the bullet in my opinion because the Garand and the Springfield fire the same round but the Springfield does more damage but it is the same projectile hitting you. SMGS would do less damage because most are 9mm or 45ACP same with pistols.

3 Likes
3

That’s actually a bit of a mess looking at WWII cartridges. For some fucking reason, German and Russian engineers came up with the same notion that .30 caliber pistol cartridges are acceptable, though some sources I’ve read claimed that the higher muzzle velocity made up for the smaller caliber than 9mm and .45

I have to lean towards the OP with balancing around the weapon itself rather than the caliber, as the way it stands right now, pistols are underperforming in order to prevent SMGs from being all-powerful, as a consequence of sharing a cartridge with SMGs. With practice, I’ve gotten pretty good at headshotting with the Nagant revolver, but needing 3 or 4 shots to down someone with a an incredibly-slow single-action pistol means it’s almost useless outside of sneaking up and executing a squad.

Pistols could use a damage buff. I think the poor sights, strong falloff at range, and the inability to zoom in, all of which is already a factor, will prevent them from being OP.

2 Likes
4

Question is: why would you ever use a bolt action if the semi automatic fires faster?

The revolver would be a pocket bolt action with very steep damage falloff, while the pistols are pocket carbines

1 Like
5

Americas standard issue rifle for infantry was the m1 Garand American soldiers had a significant advantage against their German counter parts because they had more fire power, but this game give the Germans semi autos and that is fine I just want them to do more damage

2 Likes
6

You can fire 3-4 shots with a semi for every shot a bolt action rifle fires. Making semi’s oneshot would make them OP and eliminate any use in BAs. Allowing them to 2-shot at midrange would make them fair weapons. Not too strong, not too weak.

7

That is the point IRL semi autos are superior

1 Like
8

But for game balance, we cant just throw better guns in an otherwise balanced game.
bolt actions exist and should be viable to use

1 Like
9

Once again this is not a milsim, if you want a game where where every rifle will kill you with 1 shot go play post scriptum or hell let loose.

10

Want to bump this thread as I edited the initial post to include individual weapon balancing suggestions.

11

@Old_Decard

So do I. Both tanks can penetrate each other from the side.
T-60 has double the magazine size, so it can deal more damage to an enemy tank when it can penetrate.
Pz2 has better frontal protection, meaning that while it deals less damage, it is harder to penetrate from one specific angle.
The stats balance out.

I always used the M30 when I could. I loved it. And no matter how it compares to other weapons, it is an objective fact that having the option to select a shotgun is better than not having that option.

Yes, as said, mostly balanced, other than one side having better HE on the AT gun than the other. Again, objective facts.

And agree that those specifically can get adjusted. That does not change the fact that if you ignore those, the balance is as I stated.

Again, not really. Only the MP40/41 and maaaybe the MG13 are better, but in return you get objectively more powerful rifles and a shotgun. Still not counting the PTRD as the aforementioned bug not being an intentional nerf.

12

@70242574 please keep gun balance out of the flinch thread and inside of here :stuck_out_tongue:

1 Like
13

PSA: mosins can jam now like German bolt guns could. Had my first mosin malfunction over the weekend.

2 Likes
14

I noticed them too but I thought I saw wrong lol

15

This sounds a lot like stuff that will needlessly increase the TTK for most weapons. I’ve played too much planeside 2 to agree to this. All weapons should kill or at least knock a soldier down in less than 3 shots if the target is within 30 meters, with falloff being based on the historical performance of the weapon and cartridge in question. And that’s the most lenient this can reasonably be.

And LMG’s can be fired on the move. you may not be very likely to hit something, but there is nothing physically preventing anyone from doing so. And there shouldn’t be in game, lest you want LMG gunners to be utterly defenseless when ambushed. Which you actually may. And that’s bad.

16

Most SMGs kill in 3 shots right now. It would not change a lot.

I never said they could not fire at all. I said:

17

You literally said that they should only be able to be fired while mounted on their Bipod mount.

Bipod

18

2 catagories.
The current MGs would all be the former.

I guess I should change that to no practical way of shooting them when not deployed.

19

Some LMG’s with Bipods, such as the MG34, had the option to fire them semi automatic to enable the gunners to use them with at least a little precision without the MG being deployed. And the Bipod LMG’s currently in game have such a horrible recoil that there is already no way to use them effectively while standing or moving without support, unless you manage to fire single shots. As such, nothing needs to change about these weapons whatsoever. They already behave realistic, and are as balanced as they ought to be.

20

Forcing semi-auto would work

Have you actually used any of them? MG13 is extremely easy to control and the Madsen and ZB36 really arent much more difficult. The old recoil was better imo.