Complexity of making historically accurate algorithm with current playerbase

overall i have seen hundreds of replies from people complaining to devs about why they cant keep historical accuracy with new progression system, or why cant they keep old progression system or whatever else problem they had under historical accuracy umbrella.

so i will try to explain why historically accurate battles are unsustainable.

current campaign progression is unsustainable cause it splits playerbase in 6 different campaigns with 6 different queues. it was good at beginning cause with low number of campaigns playerbase could sustain it. but with every added campaign it splits playerbase even further and you are less likely to see humans in your or opposing team. also there is problem of repeated grind for same items and equipment imbalance (stuart vs tiger). but it mostly keeps historical accuracy (except for few weapons/vehicles)
solution is either to stop adding campaigns or even remove them. totally unacceptable to devs and probably to quite few players.

weapon tree grind system. easy fix for multiple grind across campaigns. so why is it a problem to have historical accuracy for it? cause players can make any composition to squads they want. most of the battles are relatively unique cause of weapons/vehicles they fielded. so even if player makes e.g. 1941 squad for moscow, it could be historically inaccurate cause e.g. t50 was made in time of battle, but was in use in leningrad, or fedorov that was prewar weapon was reissued from reserves for service in soviet finnish war in 1940, but was mostly destroyed in that war.

so if you cant use year, you can mark specific weapons with campaigns they were used in? yes, but there is problem that by doing so you will be basically replicating old system with 6 queues now (8 till end of the year and more next year). it may be more flexible, but overall it is still 6+ queues and still doesnt fix issue of game balance (pz2 vs t34, tiger vs stuart).

so do you keep historically accurate MM or do you switch to something else?

conditional rating MM (or commonly known as BR in WT)
overall fixes balance issue (still need to see exact implementation cause it could be open to abuse) at cost of historical accuracy. not all weapons with higher BR are made later in war (see m3 smg vs thompson), so it cant be historically accurate if you want to use it to somehow artificially limit campaigns by BR. but overall it is mostly accurate cause low BR weapons usually represent early war weapons, mid BR may represent mid war weapons and high BR can represent late war weapons.
considering that one helper unofficially said (so speculation for now) that campaigns shouldnt be totally random, so if you equip late war weapon, you are more likely to end in berlin. i will use graph of @coldestwinter from another topic to make representation of how it will probably work according to that information


someone with BR of 10 will be matched only on berlin, with BR of 8 could be matched in normandy and berlin, with rating of 4 could be matched in moscow, stalingrad, tunisia, normandy or berlin with similarly equipped opponents. so if you have BR of 4 you will probably end up withing ±2 BR of your opponents.

so if you are still asking for historically accurate battles, try to give algorithm on which MM can function even with addition of new campaigns and try to give estimate of how many players need to queue at any given time and if it will fix equipment imbalance.

7 Likes

Agree on what you said is a good summary of keofox post I want only add.

To all people wo still are complain about the changes, lest wait the 3rd march Q&A currently we dont have sufficient information outside helper word and keofox translated post, the thing could be different from what we think in good or bad.

1 Like

Make each weapon tied to each map.
Display to the player what maps he can play and warn him that less maps = longer queue time.
Make a match with people with similar rating.

Or

Allow people to have multiple squads.
They will be grouped into campaigns.
Each campaign will have a list of allowed and dissallowed gear.
Allow people to check what campaigns to queue for.

Neither is ideal but imo the 2nd is better.
You may argue it splits the playerbase. But if I want to play stalingrad, I will play stalingrad and you can do nothing with it.

4 Likes

Simply set an in service date for each weapon, when it was first used in action, and set a date for each map, so any weapon that has a date later than the one set for the map cant be used.

So No Pershing’s before 45… for example.

no…

alright so, the following are base on my personal opinion, trying to remain objective as possible ( gonna be a challenge uh, anyway )

that’s why we asked for an HA ( historical accuracy ) MM. so that people can play historical battles with the equipment that they have.

sure. they won’t be able to decide what to play and when to play it ( outside custom matches. which are there for that… somewhat ) but they can still play with other people that wants to play HAs.

more people, less dividing in playerbase numbers.

again, like WT. arcady, realistic and simulative.

except, there is no need for simulative in enlisted. perhaps custom games with mods. ( although, not currently but for the future ).

weapon tree might be an actual and somewhat good argument, but not impossible.

so, the grind still remains the same for HA people. they just dont’ get to use the non historical weapons into this designed MM for HAs.

sure, grind will be somewhat longer for them. or rather, limit the ammount of people that has those weapons from joinin with HA. to kinda put them still in line, but not too often. ( as historically, there were some instaces where prototypes were used or not largely common weapons ).

and that’s where the monetization still comes in.

from historical vehicles camouflages, customization of uniforms, boosters xps, premium etc.

they are not completely " self dependant " as many wants to imply.

why not both.

if you think about it, more people for enlisted is better.

well, enlisted was meant to be asymetrical balance. and the actual war wasn’t balanced either.

but, that’s what people are after.

hence why called historical accuracy.

which those people prefer to play those squads where grenades weren’t as common as there are in the game, nor vehicles spam, nor automatic weapons etc.

both arcady and HA players can exists.

on this one, i don’t know exactely how many players are willing to play it. but i have reasons to believe that many others might join because of a dedicated gamemode.

you can’t really know if you don’t at least try it.

on the other hand, you technically don’t even need players.
PVEs ( which at one point will be a thing, confirmed by devs, editor and others features ) would do just nicely.
( granted, AI will need some work to act as a player with tanks and what not. but not impossible and sure. we can put perhaps a limit cap per day on how much you can gain by playing those simialr to crossout, or you can’t earn more than for example, 20k per match. once you have a score of 26k, you’ll gain only 20k per match. etc ).

it all comes to actually doing it to accommodate more people.

and more people usually is more incomes.

2 Likes

I’m still just gonna push for each squad having a seperate loadout for each campaign.

4 Likes

Thompson,mg15,fedorov,berettaM38 ecc… are pre war

I dont think is good let soviet spam fedorov in moscow map aganaist some mp38 but is only my opinion

And is probably the better solution

1 Like

Yes I am biased of course but I do find my solution to be one of the better ones.

3 Likes

Asymmetric balance.

1 Like

Dude

SOVIET
Mosin
Svt38
Svt40
Avs36
AVT40
Fedorov
Ppd40
Ppd38
Ppd34
Ppsh41
Madsen
DP
DPM
DT
Yak
Il2
Mig
T28
T60
T26
BT7
T50
T34
KV1

GERMANY
Kar98k
Gewer41
Mp38
Mp40
Mg34
Panzer3b
Panzer3j
Panzer4E
Bf
Stuka

Haha

I used only national equipment no lend leased

They really should have saved Fedorov for Winter War campaign

Imo They have to use the ppsh2 instead of the fedorov, the fedorov is more a gold gun

1 Like

German Engineers could Build an 88.

Another Problem, is that so many of the guns in Enlisted have an artificial values for performance, dispersion, accuracy, ROF, exc, these could be made to be more realistic and change the overall efect, basically German guns would tend to be more accurate especially there SMG’s, and MG 34 would have a much higher ROF than the Soviet MG’s.

In Game, despite the Germans have fewer potential Weapons, and they should have access the Czechoslovakian kit as well, as many German Units used there Guns, especially SS early on, the difference in game would not feal that different really.

3 Likes

And dev dont want change it, yet, so speaking for how the game is it now the assymetrical balance dont work Because the one with more firepower win

And that is because

Gonna be an injust advantage for certain faction in determined map

Totally agree. Also authenticity doesnt mean strict historicity.
It can simply early late mid war and some diffeeences to balance, like puting p 38 into mid war tier.
Yes t 50 was used in leningrd BUT that vehicle exist that time in useable numbers and theoretically could be used in moscow too. Seeing t50 in moscow is not same as seeing german jet fighters of is2 in moscow.
But we still have a HUGE problem; japan and thailand( yes i want to see them too) .
European axis( italy romania etc… ) also lacks high tech but were fighting side by side with germans so it can be recompansed with giving them ability to use german weapons, vehicles.
Japan on the other hand was fully on its own, alliance was just on the paper.
There were no significant japan- german weapon aid, coexisted operations.
Pacific maps need special coding about mm.
Since even if devs give japan the heaviest prototype they have built(chi ri tank) ; japan cant deal with shermans.
If you look at plane department, things are not great either.
Japan never developed any rocket launching plane like p 38. They dont even have a prototype.
So 1 p38 in match is enough to ruin japanese.
And p 38 first introduced in 1939 so it can be classified early war or for balance purpose mid war. But regardless of timeline japan has nothing to counter that.

1 Like

If they break it down to entry date , by month, and that would be defined as date it was first used in action, that would help.

Right Now it’s year, and the year it was excepted for service, not the year it first saw service.

Their will always be a perception that the enemy has better kit, no matter what side you’re on, someone will always bitch and moan about that, even with the proposed system, players will find a way to complain about it.

I think they need to embrace some historical relevance, all were doing hear is trying to find a way to think up how they can.

Some players will never be happy no mater what they do.

Italy is not really a problem, They Used German Stug’s and had a very good 90 mm Gun, basically an 88, they also had some of the most capable aircraft in theater in terms of performance.

But this totally remove usage of some equipment in late and early map, this kind of balance you are suggesting is very hard to implement and code

I cant speak to that, in theory it would seam doable.

The Alternative would seam a deal breaker for me personally, so I hope they find a way to embrace historical accuracy for immersions sake

1 Like