WP and Smoke Grenades are pointless. Combine their effects and merge them into a single grenade

Suggestions
1

In most if not all smoke grenades used in the time period, the obscuring agent is phosphorus, usually white.

Smoke grenades are… Not particularly too useful.

They lack the power to actually obscure an area. Smoke artillery and smoke shells loaded by tanks can obscure an area instantly whereas smoke grenades require time for the smoke to fill an area, and can even be thrown back during this period to render it useless.

WP grenades are a shadow of their former self.

Their duration, damage and area of effect has been significantly decreased to the point that they can usually be ignored unless you were set on fire by the initial blast. They no longer phase through walls, fizzle out in water, can no longer cover an objective and most notably, require a soldier to stay inside its area of effect for almost 6 seconds in an otherwise 8 second-only effect. If they have the vitality perk, they have to stay inside the cloud for the entire duration of the effect.

To put it bluntly, neither of these throwable weapons have a particularly strong niche.

  • Frag and impact grenades are the premiere anti-infantry throwable.
  • Molotovs can deny an entryway/chokepoint for an entire half-minute.
  • Explosive packs are versatile, having limited AoE and range in exchange for the ability to destroy vehicles.

And then there’s smoke and WP, which are flawed for the reasons aforementioned. They are not viable enough to equip into slots.

My suggestion is to combine the two grenades into one in the following way:

  • Smoke grenades instantly propagate their smoke on detonation, as with WP grenades.
  • The opacity of the grenade smoke is increased to the same level as artillery/tank smoke shells
  • Damage dealt by the cloud is reduced to 1/s from 1.75/s.
  • Smoke grenades last 15 seconds.
  • Opacity and damage notably drops at the 10 second mark.

The intention is to make the smoke a temporary hazard that can be charged through at risk of damage, but not enough to allow someone to stay there indefinitely. They’ll both obscure and discourage people from entering the smoke, unless they’re willing to place a risk charging through it. It would also combine the two otherwise useless grenades to create a viable and unique tactical tool.

8 Likes
2

I am more in favor of limiting the possibility of taking 3 grenades of the same type, most balance imperfections can be solved this way, any grenade could be effective. WP before the nerf wasn’t that dangerous, unless you had 3 of them. the smoke grenade is crap unless you have 3 of them and so on.

4 Likes
3

Grenade smokes are not that bad, but they need some adjustment. I will not even gonna start to write about how i feel about the now useless WP.

1 Like
4

You mean the time they had a 50% larger aoe, went through walls, dealt double the damage, had double the smoke duration and bots didn’t try to avoid the cloud at all, it wasn’t that dangerous at all?

If they’re “not that bad”, how come the only people using smoke grenades specifically are newer players with underdeveloped squads?

It’s a freebie item people eventually realize is worthless as a tool given how easy it is to just outright kill anyone they see. It covers too little of an area and it barely obscures your vision, while also taking up a soldier’s grenade slot, of which they only have one of except when they specifically bring grenade pouches to the exclusion of any other backpack slot item.

The idea is to mix the instant gas expansion of the WP as an obscurant and make it slightly spicy as to introduce a small penalty to whoever is staying in the cloud. These combine the best traits of both grenades without adding something that is so powerful it gets nerfed into oblivion when people inevitably start spamming it.

1 Like
5

Yeah, i’m with you, but they are not gonna give you the amount you expect for both combined, it is much better if they do some work on them.

On the noobs part, i can’t vouch for it, i use at least one SG on the first run with engineers to divert attention into some specific area… If you know what i mean.

1 Like
6

no.

Willipees were a bad introduction, and the nerf was justified.

you can still use them to damage or kill people from the other side of the wall.

wouldn’t bee to bad to get rid of them entirely. ( and lock them to pves. but that’s more of my opinion )

as for smokes, for no reason in hell i should get damaged for going through them.

and, the solution to make them last longer would be more appropriate.

therefore, the only thing i would combine from willipees into smoke, is that if someone is in the smoke just like the willipee, AI and players inside it, should cough.

just like old day of infamy was.

3 Likes
7

My concern is, what sort of buff would warrant people genuinely considering equipping them in the grenade slot over the other options.

If they magically stay in the same spot for almost 6 seconds out of the 8 second duration, sure. At that point, you can just throw a random explosive through a window and not have to wait as long.

Not to mention, if that niche was actually viable, it’d be used more often, and even shamelessly spammed by deathstacks- But no. The new favorite throwables are impacts. WP grenades weren’t just nerfed, it was nerfed to the point of uselessness, next to smoke grenades.

Hence the suggestion to combine both so you can occupy both niches at once.

8

I GREATLY DISAGREE.

I actually have started using smoke grenades again pretty heavily.

A single smoke grenade is not very strong, that is true. However, if you use 2 or more, and thrown with accuracy, the effect can be VERY noticeable.

Personally, I outfitted the Soviet Assaulter Event squad with them.

  • Engineer, 3x smoke
  • Assaulters, 2x smoke + 1 frag

It works VERY effectively.

So many people fail to realize what WP’s role is supposed to be anymore.
It’s not meant to be area denial, nor is it supposed to be used to obliterate everything.
It’s NICHE is to eliminate entrenched units WITHOUT breaking the cover, which it does very effectively as long as your throw is ACCURATE.

You’re right, it no longer goes through terrain walls, but it will seep around corners, something that only Molotovs have any kind of comparable effect.
The difference though is that due to the short duration, it allows you to eliminate entrenched enemies, then move in shortly after and still be able to make use of the cover that remains!!!

Of all of the grenade options, the only things that need to change is perhaps giving the smoke grenades a larger plume, and nerfing explosive pack armor penetration, so that they are no longer more powerful than AT weaponry.

9

Perhaps in terms of LETHAL grenades, but there are a number of my troops that have 2-3 smoke grenades equipped, and actually need it that way to be effective.

They aren’t. Myself and a fair number of players that I run with have squads equipped with them. We’ve been playing for years.

This right here is the problem with a lot of balancing within the game. You are asking for a buff to an item without considering HOW its usage effects other gameplay.

Try asking yourself “what instances would there be where this tactic is warranted?”. A major one is the topic I bring up all the time: Engineer fortifications (and their durability).

IF the fortifications actually held, and pushing a fortified position was no longer a cakewalk, then smoke grenades be used TONS more, allowing attackers to push up across an area that might otherwise have been a death sentence.

10

me too! 3 smokes actually makes decent cover to push.

2 Likes
11

… Assuming they stay in the cloud for around 6 seconds of the 8 second duration. Bots already start to gtfo right after it detonates.

They never were. They only penned 35mm of armor, which meant you need to throw them specifically in places where it sees a 35mm plate or thinner, at close range.

Congratulations, now you know why impact grenade spam is meta. All the benefits of killing people that may or may not be entrenched, without any of the gimmicks of waiting for them to come out of cover or burning them to death.

The usage of smoke, at the present moment, is hardly necessary, and equipping a smoke grenade prevents you from equipping any of the more viable lethal grenade options.

12

That still proves my point though! If it either kills them outright or flushes them out of the cover, and you can just shoot them. It still allows you to keep the cover intact!

I’ve seen them punch through more than that, on MANY occasions.
Answer this for me: Which do you see used more frequently; Explosive packs or AT weaponry?

There are some instances where it actually is.

Usually when you have to push through an area that is completely open, like some maps on Stalingrad, Moscow, Tunisia, are all very known for,
OR
in cases of very narrow entries that have no cover, and sometimes not even an option for a flank, which there are plenty of cases this is the case, most notably in Berlin and Stalingrad.

13

Just toss an impact or cook a regular grenade/explosive pack at that point.

Name what tanks.

You’re comparing a throwable usable by every soldier, from infantry to vehicle crews, and a specialist weapon where most squads can only have 1-2 of, at most, with 3 being locked behind its own squad.

It is largely unnecessary. The rate objectives get stormed is pretty much solely dependent on the rate either team can rapidly clear the other from the point and how quickly reinforcements from either team get to it.

Lives are worth peanuts, and the only value smoke would have is in the rare instance either team is balanced in the aforementioned metric.

I’m sure charging through smoke in a corridor will not at all result in the team on the other side not just casually gunning down soldiers emerging from the smoke. Especially with emplacements.

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I disagree and think they are fine. First it’s nice to have the various smoke grenades from history used in the war.

I wouldn’t just slap smoke and WP grenades together. If anything WP is just supposed to be an alternate Molotov just for immersive flavor. I’ve even suggested other frag grenades like the M43 and Egg Grenade simply for variety

In my opinion smoke is not useless. I may not know exactly how effective it is from a statistical standpoint how it effects the view of enemy bots, but I think it certainly gets the job done overall. You learn the true power of smoke grenades when you’re on the receiving end as a tank and get disoriented and you don’t know where the enemy is coming from as they swarm you or an enemy tank picks you off while you’re blind

I think smoke and WP grenades are fine as is. If anything they can just be tweaked individually

15

That’s only an issue if people threw smoke grenades at you instead of killing you outright with explosive packs or tnt charges.

And frankly, if you’re in a position where your tank is getting swarmed by infantry, that’s an issue with the tanker overextending.

You’re essentially saying “You can only see use out of it if you meet some random tank on the battlefield that is grossly out of position, and only if you choose to blind it instead of outright killing it despite being in grenade throwing range”

Put in other words: “You can see its usefulness in a scenario where you use subpar methods against a subpar opponent”

Formerly, it was better than the molotov in every way.
Now it’s outright worse in every way.

Guess which one you unlock first.

16

  1. I’ve seen both impacts and frags break down cover plenty of times. I know that so many people seem to be incapable of wrapping their heads around any playstyle other than run-and-gun, but cover is that thing that stops the bullet before it hits you. Believe it or not, if you have cover, you have a better chance of surviving.

  2. Some cover isn’t destructible, and will block the explosion. in these instances, its often more advisable to try to take cover rather than run from a grenade, as (low-and-behold) cover will protect you. The WP grenade will seep around the edges and still harm the enemy.

Perhaps you should consider the possibility that you have just been using them wrong, learn from what I and others are telling you, and adjust your strategy accordingly.

I’ll take a look, I’m not on the game atm, I know the tanks by look rather than name, as there is a lot of info to try to remember, and I’m not the best with tank and aircraft names.

I’m curious, do you play solo, or with friends mostly? I ask because while smoke seems rather inconsequential to a solo player, a coordinated group can make very good use out of it. Both on offense and on defense!!

You actually might be surprised to learn that there are strategies that CAN get you through these situations!

In terms of hallways, you are a bit more limited, but you can push along the edges, crawl forward, or use it as cover to launch GL and such.

In terms of Alleyways and narrow roads, this is where teamwork really comes in. If you can put down enough smoke, and get a teammate with a good tank, you can move the tank up to protect infantry and block lanes of fire that would otherwise be detrimental to infantry forces, therefore costing your team less tickets and increasing your chances of victory.

17

Honestly in my experience the majority of vehicles, both friend and foe, are close to the objective or in the battle area. And even if they’re not usually they’re just making their way towards the objective. I couldn’t tell you how many different instances I’ve seen. Directly on top of the objective, right behind it, literally on the front line.

It depends on the situation. Tanks can manage to scoot away from explosive packs and yes you may cook them but in that particular instance there could be a lot of enemies near by so you have to choose your moment carefully.

Regardless, a blind tank is a vulnerable tank.

I learned the power of smoke shells when I was in a tank duel and the enemy smoke shelled and took me out. I shouldn’t have to explain that if you’re smoked you’re disoriented and the enemy can take advantage of those precious few seconds to move and take you out. Battles are all about the moment to moment actions. Every second counts

18

The value of cover is meaningless if it only means the bots that follow you around- Your extra lives, become targeted instead. It’s more efficient to eliminate the threat than to meander about.

If you’re running it with your bots parked somewhere safe, you’re better off outright killing the people hiding with an explosive than give them an opportunity to fight back by throwing WP.

Brings up how often explosive packs can pen more than 35mm on quote “MANY” occassions, but can’t name a single one or provide a nation off the top of their head.

I play solo.

I occasionally play with sweatier tryhards, and they’ll scoff at you for even bringing up smoke.

Death is the best crowd control.

Then throw an explosive pack instead of a smoke grenade if they’re close enough to the objective to be in throwing range.

And a dead tank has zero risk to your team than a blind one that may randomly fire. Throw an explosive pack, instead.

You’ll notice that I make a distinction when comparing smoke grenades to smoke artillery and smoke shells.

The latter two instantly explode into a cloud. Smoke grenades have to seep out.

19

Look, SOME of us have lives outside of this game. So sorry I didn’t get back to you 30 seconds later, I had things to get done.

Jumbo, Sherman, Tiger, Tiger II, Firefly, IS2, etc. I’ve seen them all taken out by explosive packs.

The issue is that the 35mm penetration has a fairly large radius (unlike the shaped charges of AT weaponry). So the EP itself doesn’t really even need to land on a weakspot, only remotely near it. This is why its so effective. Even in the case of Tiger II tanks, the vents are the weakpoint, and the EP doesn’t have to be sitting directly on them. It can be on the armor plating near them, off to the sides, and still do critical damage.

In the case of majority of tanks in this game, most top armor is 15-30mm thick, making it EXCESSIVELY easy to one-shot tanks with the EP. Whereas most AT weapons have to get above the tank to get a penetrating shot like that, and with a very small cone of damage as well.

Overall, explosive packs need a pretty big nerf to their penetration or honestly just be removed all together. They make the game far too focused on run-and-gun, rather than using proper counters to influence game balance.

Actually, if you use the individual command function, and spread your troops out, placed behind cover, they WILL use it. I’ve actually seen my AI perform fairly decently by doing this.

It comes down to a difference of tactics and what you come up against. We use smoke on defense to force attackers into a chokepoint fairly often. While on offense we use it to avoid getting shredded by ARs and MGs on the approach, then have a frag handy when we get close enough for a very accurate throw. (2x smoke grenades, 1x frag / assaulter).

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So… It’s not that it pens more than 35mm as you previously stated, but the fact that as an explosive weapon, it has an area of effect.

Assuming the tank is within throwing range, which implies either an overextended tank, or an overextended infantry player going out of their way to flank said tank.

Explosive packs are literally the counter to tanks. What are you on about? TNT charges are there if you want to have finer control of where the explosive blows up, but otherwise, they share the same amount of penetration.

Handheld AT launchers are for when tanks aren’t within throwing range.

This is genuinely the first time I’ve seen someone go from

“WP Grenades will let you kill enemies without destroying cover” - Implying that you have the intention of using that cover after killing whoever is occupying it, meaning your bots are following you around

to

“You can use the individual command function to ensure your bots take cover” - Implying that the bots following you around either already has existing cover, or the bots themselves have to get to the cover you just cleared with WP grenades, which means they’ll awkwardly waddle towards you like a headless chicken as they’re already in the open.

Smoke is ultimately more beneficial to the attacking team than a defending team. Why on earth would you obscure the enemy instead of outright killing them?