you guys keep saying the same thing, let me ask you again:
why was it closer to the panther?
PzIV and T34-85 WOULD both pen each other frontally basically everywhere.
why would that make the T34-85 closer to the panther?
Pen isnt everything like wtf
Also the first was created to confront the latter and the Tiger I
The slow turret traverse of the IVJ is historically accurate - to simplify production, the J had itâs electric turret drive removed. The traverse rates of the J and H are accurate to historical sources. The H was the best model of the Panzer IV produced.
With that said, they really should swap the J for the H in Berlin.
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okay, even if pen wouldnât be âeverythingâ like you say, shouldnât the Panzer IV at least be able to pen according to history? that would be a nice start, dont you agree ?
Idk if it should be able to pen it from the front or not irl. My point is that in game the Pz-IV isnt even close to the T-34-85 both in armor and in penetration
pz4s in berlin are just a waste honestly. they drive a few feet and immediately get OHK
I donât think Iâve ever seen a pz4 survive a single 85mm shot. through the front plate.
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yeah, just doesnt wroth the time being ono-shoted every time 
I wasnât talking about the Pz 4
Well the âcloser to the Pantherâ has an assumption that the reader has a modicum of historical context.
Without bastardizing too much of history let me try to summarise for you, and provide you with the appropriate context.
The T-34/76 which the Germanâs first encountered in 1941 demonstrated the effectiveness of a trade off the Germans made when they designed their PzIIIs and IVs - ie crew comfort, ergonimics and efficiency over protection. Noting that the prevalent gun calibres on most tanks and anti-tank guns were between 37 - 45mm.
The lessons taken away by the Germans prompted in an accelerated program that delivered the Panther. Ironically, whilst imitating the use of sloped armour from the T-34/76 the Germans still engineered with a view of ergonomics, relative comfort and crew combat efficiency as well as adequate protection and firepower.
The first notable difference was the size - put the two tanks together in WT and youâll see the scale. Secondly, despite years of miss translation we now know that the Panther was indeed a heavy (not medium) tank for the Medium Tank companies which were distinct from the Heavy tank companies in both role and unit association. Moreover, the Panther was infact designed to fight other tanks over any infantry support role and was doctrinally alinged to this.
The PzIVs started as infantry support tanks, but when the shortcomings of the 37 and 50mm guns were discovered in what was a very rapid escalation of uparmoring and upgunning between the Soviets and Germans in the years 1941-43, the PzIV were the only chassis able to take the wider turret capable of mounting the 75mm long barrel guns, firing a higher velocity shell and needing a stronger turret ring and space at the back of the tank turret for recoil - ie need a larger turret. The roles of the PzIII and IV reversed and so you now had a medium support tank fulfilling an anti-tank role for which it was not optimally designed. Nevertheless a capable gun solved a lot of the shortcomings of the tank itself.
The same analogy applied to the soviets.
The initial success of the 76mm guns vs early PzIIIs and IVs began to fade away as these were up armoured and given a more powerful gun which was capable of destroying both the T-34/76 and KVs at long range. The Soviets knew this and they experimented with across different variants of the T-34 and KV chassis. The reason they couldnât change the chassis was that the demand for tanks was too high. They tried to fit different guns into the turrets of the T-34 and KV but these were sub-optimal.
The point of inflection occured at Kursk where the new Panther D, made it debut and despite all the technical issues, the shitfight in the swamp and the minefields, those Panthers that did enter combat were disproportionately effective. Moreover, the Soviets discovered the advantage of their 122mm and 152mm armed SPGs in being able to effectively engage both Tigers and Panthers at reasonable combat ranges - ie around 1000m.
Correspondingly, in response to the appearance of the Panther D at Kursk the Soviets accelerated their new turret program for the T-34 chassis. They came up with the initial variant the 5-DT gun, which they deployed in low numbers in the period of Dec 43 to Feb 44 depending on which source you read. The improved variant of the T-34/85 arrived in Jun/Julâ44 just in time for OP Bagration.
This is the reason ppl cite that the âT-34/85 was closer to the Pantherâ because the T-34/85 was a response to the Panther as much as the Panther was a response to the T-34/76.
In addition, the adoption of the 122mm gun into the IS tanks was due to the fact that the Soviets wanted a bigger gun on their break through tanks than the 85mm fitted to the T-34 medium fleet. Its proven record from the Kursk battles just provided combat evidence they needed to make a decision.
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My answer is yes the Panther was closer to the T-34-85 than the latter to a Pz IV. And ofc the Panther was better than the T-34-85. In game the are fine going one against in other
I was replying to the specific statement that the Panther was âthe equivalentâ of the 34/85 - I even quoted it to make that obvious.
I know, i just thought that making that the T-34-85 is better than the PzIV by far would make obvious that the T-34-85 is âequivalentâ to the Panther and not the PzIV
agree here, from a history standpoint, it was indeed a " counter" reaction to the Panther,
however by that logic the panther itself was a reaction of the T-34/76
and that would than mean the panther is also closer to the T34/76.
You see, when I say the T34-85 and the Panzer IV H are close to each other because both would knock each other completely out after 1 single shit, then im not talking about military doctrine, or weapon development.
All I am saying is, who shoots first wins.
Technically the maps in this game are all close combat, meaning that even a 76 Sherman gun should have a good chance penning Tiger tanks, yet a lot of tanks have weird armor protection while others are just one hit wonders.
Not being able to destroy something that should be dead in one hit is breaking the immersion like crazyâŚ
the new PAK40s work a lot better, instead of shooting a T3485 12 times it only took 3-4 hits
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This is flawed logic.
The design process takes lessons learnt and then uses them to make something more innovative and invariably better - hence the see saw of one tank variant being continually engineered to offset the same from their opponent.
The case in point being the improvements to the Panther through the models from D to A to G to arguably F, although there is still conjecture whether the F turret fitted Panthers actually saw combat.
All your other points are valid 
âYou see, when I say the T34-85 and the Panzer IV H are close to each other because both would knock each other completely out after 1 single shitâ
And this is not true. Go in the game and try then. Youâll need 3+ shots to knock down a T-34-85 frontally on a Pz. IV J, just try it.
Which is a problem with the borked tank damage model in enlisted - not âin real lifeâ
if the pz IV and the T-34 would pen each other everywhere, that should also apply to enlisted, right? why doesnât it then?
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Wow gaijin cares so much about realism to the point of giving german forces a disadvantage to preserve it! If only they would also allow us to use historically accurate guns instead of forcing us to use bolt action rifles from the 19th centuryâŚ
thatâs more in the realm of it being more cost-effective to retrofit existing tanks than making entirely new tanks. By extension Germany didnât have much control over what tanks they produced near the end of the war because certain factories were outfitted to make certain lines of tanks.
Thatâs also where things like the sturmpanzers and jagdpanzers come from. A Panzer IV plant canât make Panthers, it can make Panzer IVs and Jagdpanzer IVs.
iirc all of the Panzer III factories got bombed out early, so the Hetzer had to pick up the slack of the lost StuG III production
Of course youâre right that the Panther definitely wasnât designed specifically to counter the T-34, but Germany already was planning for a heavier tank on the drawing board and German and Russian tank engineers did actually collaborate in the late 20s and early 30s, so they had much of the same ideas going into the late 30s and early 40s.