Why Enlisted will die if nothing changes

TL;DR: There is a lot of stuff wrong with this game which will kill it in the long run and I want to help the developers save it.

First of all, I want to put this disclaimer here: I do really like this game and wish for it to succeed.

However

With the current state of progression, monetization, etc, I honestly doubt this game will be able to last more than a year once it hits OBT, if left in its current state. In this post I will lay out what the problems I think Enlisted has and how to fix them. While it is a mere opinion, I have done a lot of research around this topic so I hope the discussion about this thread can stay civil and as objective as possible. To keep this thread as compact as possible, I will also try to keep specific examples to a minimum. Those examples could be giving in responses, or in seperate threads.

Let’s start with the first issue: Winrates.

My view on the issue:
A lot of German players complain about having inferior weapons, but at the same time, Soviet players complain about having lower winrates. So Germany, despite having weapons worse than the Soviets, still win more matches on average. I believe this to origionate from what I call nationality bias. When a new player comes into a WW2-oriented game, they are most likely to pick the nation they are most familiar to. Generally, that means American players will pick USA, Brittish players will pick Brittain, and so on. However, when that choice is not available, they will instead pick the nation which they fought against in WW2, aka Germany. This is because most western players have next to no affinity with the Soviet Union. They are unfamiliar with the weapons, vehicles, etc. Because Germany and the Soviet Union are the only two nations in the game, it pretty much results in the Russian players playing for the Soviets while the rest of the entire world plays Germany, leading to a massive issue in playerbase. Why is this an issue, you might ask? Because if a match does not get filled to its 10 vs 10 capacity, the remaining slots get replaced by AI-controlled squads. The same applies to the 25 vs 25 lone soldier gamemode, but instead of AI squads there are individual AI soldiers. No matter how you look at it, a real player is superior to an AI, leading to higher winrates for Germany.

How to fix it:
I personally think that no matter how much you nerf Germany or buff the Soviets, the only thing you will achieve is to piss off the German playerbase, leading to a lower overall player count instead of getting a higher player count for Russia. The only way to get around this is by introducing familiar vehicles or weapons from other nations for the Soviets. These weapons and vehicles were in fact used in WW2 under the lend-lease program as well, so historical accuracy will still be a thing. If this issue is not fixed, it will make issue 2 even worse:

Issue 2: Player retention

*My view on the issue:
As it stands, new players are very unlikely to keep playing the game. The last wipe has been a while ago now and most players have a lot of competitive gear. Now imagine being a new player, having nothing more than 2 squads with 4 soldiers, armed with a bolt-action rifle, a single medkit and maybe a grenade. They have no clue how to play the game and face squads with automatic weapons, perk advantages (+35% health included), 3 more soldiers, more equipment and experience. This does not lead to a good experience. On top of that, these new players need to keep doing just that for up to months before they get the equipment needed to compete. This makes the game extremely unfriendly for new players, making it very likely for them to stay, preventing playerbase growth. Even if they wanted to buy their way in, premium squads cost half that of an AAA game and you would most likely have to get one per campaign, per nation, to compete there. Furthermore, nothing is preventing Darkflow to also add other premium squads or other paid items that could arguably be pay-to-win.

How to fix this:
Darkflow initially planned on making this game pay-to-play, where you bought each campaign seperately with Enlisted as a whole acting as a launcher to play what essentailly would be seperate games. However, they swapped to a free-to-play model after a community vote. Currently, with the closed beta test, you already have to pay 30 euro’s (or other currency equivalent) to enter the Moscow campaign, with no access given to other campaigns, even if they were available. This is the minimum price of entry, with potential other premium items driving up the effective price of the game/campaign. I propose to keep the pay-to-play system by making it so from this day forward, whenever a new campaign is added, you need to pay 30 euro’s (or equivalent) to be able to play that campaign while at the same time either reducing the strength of the squad that comes along with these packs, or removing them outright. In addition to that, the progression system would require a big rework as well, seen in the next point:

Issue 3: Progression

My view on the issue:
Currently the progression is split into multiple subcatagories. Squads get upgrade points which you use to improve that squad, as well as its relevant soldier and weapon. The biggest time consumer is soldier progression. Upgrading soldiers to max, rank 5, requires you to level 3 rank 4 soldiers, which require 3 rank 3 soldiers etc for a total of 81 rank 1 soldiers. Each soldier has to be leveled, with each level taking around 15 minutes of in-game time. Because of how the system works there are 179 levels to be leveled for one maxed out rank 5 soldier, which takes roughly 45 hours. You need up to 21 rank 5 soldiers for full squads, meaning you need 945 hours of active playtime in matches to reach this. This is a requirement for competitive play as rank 5 soldiers get more and better perks, ranging from 35% more health to 24% faster weapon reloads giving them an edge in every battle.

Another issue with this is that those rank 5 soldiers also have better AI-control than rank 1 soldiers. They are smarter and do things unleveled AI can not. This massive time investment will scare away a lot of casual players that do not want to commit to a game to that extend.

Weapon progression is the other side of the coin, with it being purely RNG based. An upgraded SMG has +20% firerate and +20% damage, leading to a 44% increase in DPS. To get this upgrade, you are required to disassemble copies of the gun, which rewards you with a random ammount of spare parts within a range. These copies of the gun are obtained through RNG via the loot boxes, meaning some players might never receive any spare guns of the type they want to upgrade.

Once you gathered enough spare parts, you can upgrade a single copy of that weapon. However, on later upgrades, there is a 20%, 30% or even 40% chance of the upgrade to fail. You can reduce the upgrade cost and increase the ammount of spare parts you get per gun via squad upgrades, but there is no way to guarantee your upgrade will succeed. The result of this is that there will be a <0.01% of the players that will always get the lowest ammount of spare parts for their guns, AND fail EVERY upgrade that they can fail, on top of NEVER getting any extra copies of the gun they want outside of the guaranteed drops. This means some players will be outright unable to improve their guns because RNG simply does not allow them to do so.

How to fix this:
Honestly the entire progression system needs a massive overhaul to be fixed. There is so much wrong with it that I can not possibly write up a proper replacement for it.

Because of these issues, there will never be enough players in the game to allow for it to grow in popularity. Without growth, there won’t be enough money comming in for Darkflow and Gaijin, leading to more monetization that will further drive away the playerbase, leading to an unevitable death of the game in its entirety. Do keep in mind that Gaijin has an history of making their F2P progression systems take absurd ammounts of time and as annoying as possible to incentivice players into spending as much money as possible.

I hope that we as a playerbase can discuss this in a civilized way and give it the attention required for Darkflow and Gaijin to pick up on it and change what needs to be changed for the better.

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But this is inevitable. Most of the reviews of Enlisted play in my country were about poor AI performance, but if this doesn’t change as the soldier grade goes up, many players won’t be playing the game for a long time.

In order to close the gap between players, I think developers should use a method of matching players with similar campaign progress.

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No other way about it. I’m already more than happy that the more vocal members of the community have decided to put aside their faction preferences in order to make way for civilized discourse and discussion of the game’s mechanics.

The only thing we desperately need is communication from the devs, whether that be in the shape of a Community Manager or the devs themselves popping in on popular suggestion threads to leave a simple “We’re looking at this right now.”

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Hi there!

New player, new poster. Me and my friends joined the CBT quiet recently, but thanks to the Lockdown we’ve managed to climb to lvl10+ on the soviet side last week.
Now I have the joy to recognize a couple of names on the forums. Hi again :>

And as much as I enjoy the progression system, it certainly needs revamping. I’ve got to admit, the first couple of days we’ve had a lose rate of around 90-95%. And we didn’t just lose, we were… r*ped.

I don’t want to open the barrel of MP40-variants against PP’s, but what certainly should be aknowledged is the inability of newer players to even engage a tank. What can you do, when you don’t have engineers yet (which takes more than one or even two days for certain people) and with that no forward spawn - and you have what, around 6 explosive charges in your whole 3 squads? Especially in invasion you have a lot of trouble to even advance into the capture zones, we hated it until we’ve got the full roster (and now it certainly has become our favorite mode).
The scarcity of medkits, grenades and explosive charges is a, if not even the hardest blow to the rookie players, which literally ain’t equipped to face their experienced enemies, which is a problem, since rookies are also those that need the most crutches.

I love how I can feel my squads getting stronger, developing into a real powerhouse, but being the seal in a seal-beating-contest will drive a lot of people of.

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ooor they could just give the rank 0 AI the same performance as the rank 5 AI so everyone has equally good bots

agreed. But sadly, in every gaijin game, the connection between at least non-russian players and the developers have been pretty much non-existant. Idk about the russian side of the communities but with war thunder, crossout, etc, the devs wouldnt listen either.

At least the soviets get the better guns. The Germans have it even worse. Also with invasion, Germany attacks and Russia defends, meaning Russia has a better time there too.

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If that happens, the players who have played for a long time will not be satisfied.I am satisfied with the current AI system, but I think it is better to slightly increase the overall soldier’s ability. It is better for rank 2 soldiers not to have the ability of novice players as they are now, but to have rank 0 soldiers with novice player level abilities, and rank 5 soldiers with the ability of players who have played the game for hundreds of hours. I think.

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But then why would a new player keep playing the game?

they download the game, play it for 2-5 hours, suffer in every match, then deinstall.

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As noted above, the best solution is to match new players with new players. This is used in a similar way in most FPS games, and Enlisted will also be able to use it.

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That would require enough players to facilitize that. As it stand we don’t even have enough Soviet players to fill single 10v10 matches at odd hours.

Hell, I didn’t want to[quote=“5762269, post:5, topic:2343”]
At least the soviets get the better guns. The Germans have it even worse. Also with invasion, Germany attacks and Russia defends, meaning Russia has a better time there too.
[/quote]

I really don’t want to engage in a faction-balance debate.
I’ve lurked through enough of the forums to see it’s fruitless and, tbh, emotionally loaded. Both carry their load.

Nevertheless, Mosin91/30 or Carbine - they really don’t help against tanks, which were my main point.
And they don’t make up for the lack of experience or familarity of the player. Rookies miss their grenades and make dumb plays - they are the ones that need a filled inventory the most.

Really, we were slaughtered so hard it wasn’t fun. If we weren’t in lockdown, a 4-man-squad or really intrigued by the possibilities of Enlisted we would have quit the first days. Ok… being familiar with the RO-franchise certainly did help, too, which had an incredibly steep learning curve. But what was so insanely frustrating was the fact that we knew the right tools existed, we just were denied access to them.

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This is one of the biggest problems rn, tbh.

The progression needs to be reworked, yes
Seeing how long it Will take to grind each nation in every campaign. The amount of xp should be lowered.

And for soldier upgrading it should also as you say take less time or The amount of required soldiers to be lowered at higher rank. That at higher ranked soldiers just need more xp to be upgraded. Per soldier but can be upgraded by himself.

And recieved soldiers should be able to be traded in for other units i dont need 8 fighter pilots and should be able to trade some in for new classes

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And the logistic departement needs to be improved aswell. As some items are easier obtained than others

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there’s quite a lot to talk here, so i’ll start with keywords of mention, in order to keep it clear, and compact.

because everyone knoes how much i type. ( quite a lot if i can say so of my self )

anyway,

  1. Winrate:

i do agree on preatty much what you wrote about the problem, where it’s kinda pointless to buff soviet guns, or nerf german weapons. this " fix " it’s just gonna make people leave.

but otherwise, i don’t fully understand what do you mean by:

what do you mean?
like, introduce T34s? or what? because soviets, are soviets. meaning that those are quite well known as right now. and mosins, dp28s, and other iconic weapons are already there.

the problem of adding iconic vehicles such as the t34, you will have to include pz4s, and even more, other vehicles to somewhat, compete.

and as i talked, in another post, those 3 tanks that we got right now, are made to be gameplay balance.
just imagine a pz2 against a t34…

  1. Player Retention:

For how much i could agree, there’s always gonna be trouble. about balancing people that does not have much time, and would like to play the game, and people that have massive time to play.

the only thing, i disagree on your suggesttion. because the game would end up being payed 130 dollars if i would like to play all campaigns. so insthead, i have other three solutions,

1st) make the game pay 60 euros, and change the overhall experience system, but at the same time, include skins to pay, or something like that.

2nd) that i would prefer much more, make the progression system like crossout, where every day, you have a booster for ( let’s say ) 70k of reputation. than it will drop to something normal, and for use it again, you will have to wait for tomorrow.
in this way, people that does not play that much, they will be able to some what, compete without having serious issue of grind.

3rd) the last one that i was thinking, make more pve gamemodes with gainable experience included, so people that still wants to enjoy the game and somewhat make progression, so after a while, if they want to try to pvp, they will most likely be able. ( but i’m not too sure on this one )

yet again, all of them are questionable, i could agree.
but i don’t think that each campaing should be bought. because to be honest, i would be dissapointed to pay 30 euros for just 4 maps, a bounch of vehicles, and the smaller content that we got for now.

  1. Progression:

well, i don’t even know what to say, and where to start.
it’s a hot and difficult topic.
because it’s mainly influenced by being a free to play.
in many ways wrong, and in others good.

wrong because, as you already typed, this whole system it’s stupid, and unfair towards those people that wont be able to fully upgrade their weapons.

and good, because from what i see, this system ( before the CBT ) was actually good, people had to be forced through everything so they couldn’t skip to much better equipment, or worse, skip to the " meta ". in the meanwhile, make the players learn how specific vehicles, weapons, mechanicis worked. making the player become more experienced after each unlocks. and once they progressed to the line, they had such equipment that they could use it like the wanted in each and individual way.

  1. Conclusion:

that is an undenayable truth.
people will most likely leave.

and i will always reapeat my self till this will be changed.
the Overpriced squads are not very worthed at all, nor they will make a good impression to any newer players.
it is truee that gaijin/darkflow will get the initial money wanted, but those pack will just kill the whole game by stupid perks, misleading factors, such as, even if you have this squad, you can’t train soldiers with it, because you still need to proceed with the normal infantry squad, ( not to mention, that even if you would " fix " this problem, you will make people reach the end game much quicker, and they might gonna leave because there’s nothing else for them to do )

and those are very bad structured.

anyway, people won’t spend money. and if they will, with the current system, they will preatty much be dissapointed, and tell to their friends to not commit the same mistake.

microntransations were better if applied on skins. maybe newer premium squads with less strenght, and surely less pricey.

but i don’t know. maybe this is just me.

anyway, cheers^^
let’s hope for the best

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I mentioned the lend-lease program specifically. There were a lot of western pieces of equipment used by the soviet army. For example, a M3 Stuart wouldn’t be entirely out of place. Now I do not know how many of the lend-lease vehicles were used in this specific campaign, that is something the developers should look into.

This would make creating new campaigns less and less profitable for the developers sadly, so I doubt they would do that.

Sadly would not fix the issue of a new player entering the game let’s say half a year after release from getting absolutely stomped. The main issue here is the diffrence between newbie and veteran moreso than the time needed to get from newbie to veteran.

I tried to stay away from that topic as much as possible. There will always be a meta in a game with choices that is more complex than rock-paper-scissors. Even tic-tac-toe has a meta. You can never prevent players from trying to get to the meta content. You can only make it so that the non-meta content is enjoyable enough that players take it because they think it is more fun than the meta. For example I enjoy derp guns in war thunder. They are not meta by any stretch of the imagination but they are fun

well, i don’t know in this case,
i’m not sure that would include a reason to play soviet. aside from memes, and real russians, i don’t know who plays them.

due also to the fact that nazi germany in ww2 had a strong propaganda that still confuses many people these days. and from a point of view, much more " serious " or make people thinking " oh cool, i’m the bad guy ".

but even this, it’s smaller. and maybe, not relatable at all.

mh, in marketing terms, you get the money from everyone that would buy the game. ( and there are many people that would pay for this game ) it would give a lot of initial money. and when the game will be preatty much " done " many others will join through the feedbacks, and videos of various people.
honestly speaking, enlisted even with it’s own long term troubles, it’s a promesing game. gorgeous graphic, and somewhat, " solid " gameplay, ( bullshits like premium squads aside ).

so this could be a solution.
but i don’t know. i ain’t no marketing manager either…

truee. but i don’t think there are many others solutions.

i disagree. enlisted put you in the position of free choice. but at the same time, it forces you to progress and see what other options are there. surely you can stop your self by grinding the 3 starters squads and be good. but enlisted invites you to use also the other squad to get other classes and progress even more. the "meta " it’s very grindy. and hard to obtain. the point is, even if you manage to get to the meta, those soldiers are still " human ", meaning that 1/2 shot and they will be out. it helps you a little bit in the battle, but not that much. surely you can get 5 automatic weapons, but they aren’t gonna be a much of use if they die from the distance, greandes or bombs.

it’s vaste, and everything can happen. so this is why i wouldn’t consider it a meta.

but again, that’s just me.

anyway, i would love to discuss it about more. but i’m becoming worried that i always state my minds and never listen the others. so i think i’ll end it here.

but let’s hope for the best.

making it pay to play is a bit to late. plus people voted for it free to play you can’t change that.

Just don’t want to main nazis :grimacing:
I think there’s a couple of guys/gals around that find it hard to swallow, even tho I enjoy the occasional game with them.

The developers have the right and power to do what they want to do with the game and could easily overrule that vote if they so wanted.

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Invasion should be the main game mode.

It’s an attack defend mode meaning you can balance the map itself to overcome any faction imbalances due to weapons or playerbase.

It’s what the red orchestra/rising storm series does. You can bias the map towards one particular side which will overcome and balance out anything that one particular faction has that’s OP.

The soviets win the one single invasion map we got quite a lot of the time. It’s just conquest where the big issue is.