Western Allies Small Arms Balancing Discussion Thread

[Comet92220]

@TheUnclaimedOne

Yet you want the rifle removed from the Rifleman role

Well no that NOT is my point, I want to keep my M2 Carbine as it is. This is one of the few weapons that allows the US to compete with FG and STG spam.

@TheUnclaimedOne

Don’t see you begging for that one to be nerfed to only such and such roles

I am not asking to be nerfed, this is by far my most used weapon as a US main in Normandy.

@TheUnclaimedOne

Just let us have our Carbines

I totaly agree with that. Others people in this thread are asking for switching the M2 to assaulter class, which I strongly disagree with. I want to keep it as my top rifle weapons. I don’t know why people wants to put BAR instead.

@Stein_Grenadier

Then, when instantly presented with the Browning Automatic Rifle, you go “No”.

I said no because I don’t see the BAR as a replacement for the M2. FG was design as an all in one package for German paratroopers as having multiple kind of weapons (G43, Kar98, MG34/42) was not suitable for them. FG 42 is a weapon that was specifically made for being versatile. BAR was designed as an automatic rifle to support riflemen advances in WW 1, not as a standard issue weapon.

BAR is an heavy weapon, it is almost twice as heavy and cumbersome as FG, depending of the variant. Thus, riflemen with BAR would be much slower than their German counterpart. BAR is a nice weapon (WAR was my first Gold order weapon and was sooo nice to grind Normandy) but it is heavy and will lower your mobility.

@Stein_Grenadier

You know what, M2 Carbines were historically proliferated as a response to StG 44s, so they should be categorized as assault rifles.

Does that mean that people who invested time into grinding and upgrading many M2 must be punished because “actually its an assault rifle, use BAR instead” ? I bought and upgraded 15 M2 in Normandy for my squads and I never used any M1918A2, and now I should give up all of them because someone believed in “consistency” in this game? It is too late to change it now, I would be really upset if I had to regrind the same amount of BAR, and I am pretty sure that I won’t be alone in that case.

Also, german engineer from Stalingrad will have the ability to use any German assault rifle including STG, but at the same time you argue that M2 should be limited to assaulter because you consider it as an assault rifle (which it is for sure, but not according to the game)

Yes BAR is an automatic rifle, does that mean that US main have to give up half of their LMG in their roster? If you give M2 to assaulter, all BAR to riflemen, then what is left for US MG gunner? Three Bren variant and one M1919, don’t get me wrong , these are great weapons but then MG variety for US will feel lackluster.

@TheUnclaimedOne

And the M2 Carbine is…well, a carbine. A short barreled rifle.

Yes exactly ! So, I am asking those wanting the M2 to be moved as an assaulter exclusive : what would happen to the M1 carbine, which you know is also a Carbine, it would be an assaulter weapon ? Just like VG1-5, which is also a carbine and that everyone one advocated for it to be available to every riflemen ?

[XxNelsonSHxX]

To be fair, StG serie are planned to replace both MP40 and Mauser rifle as part of the Sturmzug formation, and even replace the MG gunner due having the entire squad all equipped with assault rifle

The M2 carbine is a defensive weapon till Cold War Era they changed to offensive role…

[CaptainSebekel]

More authentic and also possibilities to get more varities.

[TheUnclaimedOne]

Man I’m sorry. I guess I attacked the wrong person. Lol. We’re on the same side here, my bad

[Stein_Grenadier]

@Comet92220

I bought and upgraded 15 M2 in Normandy for my squads and I never used any M1918A2, and now I should give up all of them because someone believed in “consistency” in this game? It is too late to change it now, I would be really upset if I had to regrind the same amount of BAR, and I am pretty sure that I won’t be alone in that case.

I own about 52 maxed M2 Carbines on both Normandy and Pacific, and I still think they should be recategorized.

Sunk cost fallacy is a somewhat acceptable argument, especially given the grindiness of the game, but you cannot inherently fix something that never belonged to that category of weapon in the first place.

I repeat, the M2 Carbine is the lone exception where, when every other faction has automatic rifles for riflemen, you have what are effectively assault rifles for everyone. Everyone else is stuck with magazines roughly half its size, half its ammo capacity, and nowhere near its controllability.

@Comet92220

Yes BAR is an automatic rifle, does that mean that US main have to give up half of their LMG in their roster?

The western allies will be merged. Gaps in a tech tree can be filled by other nations- In this case, Vickers, Bren and more obscure US LMGs will fill the gap left behind by the BARs- Which are another exception in the LMG category in that for whatever reason, they have less movement penalty, feature handling similar to automatic rifles (hint hint) and do not have the capacity of other faction’s LMGs.

@Comet92220

I said no because I don’t see the BAR as a replacement for the M2. FG was design as an all in one package for German paratroopers as having multiple kind of weapons (G43, Kar98, MG34/42) was not suitable for them. FG 42 is a weapon that was specifically made for being versatile. BAR was designed as an automatic rifle to support riflemen advances in WW 1, not as a standard issue weapon.

BAR is an heavy weapon, it is almost twice as heavy and cumbersome as FG, depending of the variant. Thus, riflemen with BAR would be much slower than their German counterpart. BAR is a nice weapon (WAR was my first Gold order weapon and was sooo nice to grind Normandy) but it is heavy and will lower your mobility.

There you go again with the historical accuracy argument in a game that has long abandoned it.

While we’re at it, let’s give AT gunners submachineguns and turn them into supersoldiers, because that’s what AT crews were issued. Even funnier for the germans because they get assault rifles. In fact let’s fully embrace the “if they were ever issued that weapon, they can use it”. And in that regard, the shock armies the soviets used that had companies comprised of platoons armed solely with submachineguns should be a reality.

Historical accuracy should be applied completely, or not at all. Being selective gives you the Stalingrad and Berlin campaign effect where hundreds of thousands of captured ppsh submachineguns were issued to german soldiers (and that would resolve a balancing concern in terms of small arms in the game), but the devs thought it to be funny to remove them from the shop as limited time items when the merge finally happens. The captured panzerfausts in Berlin will be a permanent addition to the soviet tech tree though. Lmao.

@Comet92220

Also, german engineer from Stalingrad will have the ability to use any German assault rifle including STG, but at the same time you argue that M2 should be limited to assaulter because you consider it as an assault rifle (which it is for sure, but not according to the game)

I don’t understand why you bring up the engineers in stalingrad- My opinion won’t change. ARs should be solely in the hands of assaulters, and funni exceptions to the rule, especially ones that are paywalled in said campaign, are unacceptable.

It’s almost as if the balancing concerns we have are a result of lack of foresight and selective interpretations of what is and isn’t historically accurate. wink wink

[VoyoMayPL]

Move M2 to assaulters.
AVT and FG to gunner.

Imo it makes the most sense in terms of what soldier clases are supposed to do.

[Stein_Grenadier]

@Stein_Grenadier

Taking automatic rifles away from riflemen would render the classes incapable of handling automatic weapons into deadweights, and increase the value of assaulter squads, which have up to 5 automatic weapons.

Lives are worth peanuts, and if I have to choose between a squad of 9 with 8 rifles and 1 automatic, and a squad of 7 with 5 automatics, it’s clear which squad has more firepower.

SMGs, ARs, LMGs and automatic rifles have their own little ways of being balanced.

[VoyoMayPL]

Then maybe stop designing the game around one blody playstyle?

Problem: game heavily encourages cqc engagements and use of atuomatic weapons

Retarded solution: give automatic weapons to everybody

Acrual solution: make other playstyles a good alternative (easier said than done)

[Adamnpee]

@VoyoMayPL

Then maybe stop designing the game around one blody playstyle?

Problem: game heavily encourages cqc engagements and use of atuomatic weapons

Retarded solution: give automatic weapons to everybody

I do agree.
Current gamemodes with fighting over small areas (obejcitives) heavily encourages players to use full autos. They’re just most effective for this situation.

Rather the completely screwing up current classification system. Devs should officially support things like Tommy’s mode. I personally didn’t play it. But it sounds like something where player is not constantly fighting over small objectives.

Changing classification of already existing weapons will be just frustrating for lot of people. I can myself relate to, since I was extremely frustrated when they’ve changed classification of mkb35.

Demanding selfish changes really isn’t optimal solution. Even if the changes are actually logical or practical.

[VoyoMayPL]

@Adamnpee

Demanding selfish changes really isn’t optimal solution. Even if the changes are actually logical or practical.

I’d argue that if something is logical and practical, it’s not selfish. Or at least not mainly.

Also we could argue that approach like:
Changing weapon class is logical but we shouldn’t do it because I don’t like the change (for any reason).
is the selfish one.

[Adamnpee]

I partly agree and partly not. Change by nature is more significant and impactful.

[VoyoMayPL]

Human nature is retarded by design.

[Stein_Grenadier]

@VoyoMayPL

Then maybe stop designing the game around one blody playstyle?

Too late for that. Years too late.

The quantity of potential targets- Bots, are too high compared to any other ww2 FPS game. Since matches are focused on objectives, it turns into a matter of which side can cut down the other’s numbers the fastest.

@VoyoMayPL

Acrual solution: make other playstyles a good alternative (easier said than done)

Hey, you’re welcome to try your hand at fixing the system if you actually put some thought into the ideas, and I’m more than willing to discuss it at length with you. But I won’t be convinced if you can’t do anything more than a single line of text and vague hopes and dreams of what could be considered an ideal future for the game.

@VoyoMayPL

Changing weapon class is logical but we shouldn’t do it because I don’t like the change (for any reason).
is the selfish one.

The desire for consistency is a stepping stone that levels the playing field for the multitude of firearms we have and removes weird exceptions to the rule (Like the aforementioned M2Cs being assault rifles for everyone, or federovs being super weapons), and leads the way to further balance weapons that are lacking in one factor with bonuses for another.

@Adamnpee

But it sounds like something where player is not constantly fighting over small objectives.

The current match system we have is flawed in that invasion/assault/destruction is basically a sequence of objectives people focus on, so anyone can just brute force them.

The issue with spreading objectives over a wider area or widening the map in general, and especially because we do not have full player lobbies outside of custom matches, spreads enemies out too thinly, reduces the influence of any player in a match and makes maps that use a variation of different objectives on the same map (Especially Berlin, Stalingrad and Pacific) feel more repetitive.

[VoyoMayPL]

@Stein_Grenadier

Hey, you’re welcome to try your hand at fixing the system if you actually put some thought into the ideas, and I’m more than willing to discuss it at length with you. But I won’t be convinced if you can’t do anything more than a single line of text and vague hopes and dreams of what could be considered an ideal future for the game.

I did many proposals.
But ppl were complaining that:

• walking simulator (in case of larger maps)
• I want to reduce their freedom (I wanted to limit spam)

Good thing that Tommy has similar thoughts on the topic and (unlike me) he has skills and time to make them work in his mod.

[Stein_Grenadier]

You’re asking for historical accuracy in a game that has long abandoned the notion and concept of it despite sponsoring ads to the contrary.

Not to mention, if the intent is to change the gameplay and make it slower, you would need to get rid of the bots- Both squad and player fill-ins, and have it be populated with players. As mentioned earlier, automatic weapons have a clear purpose given the numerous targets on the way to and at the objective. You would also need to account to adjustments in exp gain.

You know, just… Casually removing the one signature thing Enlisted has over other WW2 shooters.

At that point, we might as well be a HLL or Post Scriptum clone.

Alternatively, we could stop seeing the chicken for a duck and work with what we have, instead of what we want it to be.

[VoyoMayPL]

@Stein_Grenadier

You’re asking for historical accuracy in a game that has long abandoned the notion and concept of it despite sponsoring ads to the contrary.

Asking for weapons to be tied to correct classes is indeed very historically accurate.

@Stein_Grenadier

Not to mention, if the intent is to change the gameplay and make it slower, you would need to get rid of the bots-

Or make them actually useful instead of meat shields and extra lives.
But we can’t have that because ppl will cry about bots shooting back.

@Stein_Grenadier

At that point, we might as well be a HLL or Post Scriptum clone.

Instead we have a clone of BF and CoD.

[Stein_Grenadier]

@VoyoMayPL

Asking for weapons to be tied to correct classes is indeed very historically accurate.

Ok.

@Stein_Grenadier

While we’re at it, let’s give AT gunners submachineguns and turn them into supersoldiers, because that’s what AT crews were issued. Even funnier for the germans because they get assault rifles. In fact let’s fully embrace the “if they were ever issued that weapon, they can use it”. And in that regard, the shock armies the soviets used that had companies comprised of platoons armed solely with submachineguns should be a reality.

You can blame motorized/mechanized divisions for being armed to the teeth.

[VoyoMayPL]

@Stein_Grenadier

You can blame motorized/mechanized divisions for being armed to the teeth.

You know I have a solution for that, right?
It’s called spawn score. (Shit storm begins in 3, 2, 1…)

Because (you may be surprised), ww2 armies weren’t composed exclusively of elite assault units.
Also why do you use anti-HA argument in a discussion not related to HA? I just want weapons to be restricted to classes that should have them.

[VoyoMayPL]

At this point I have a feeling you are not discussing with me but with some imaginary enemy in your head.

[Stein_Grenadier]

@VoyoMayPL

Also why do you use anti-HA argument in a discusion not related to HA?

If you had half the mind to read what I’m replying to, historical accuracy keeps getting mentioned as a justifying factor in why things are as they are (but there are magical, arbitrary exceptions, of course)

Hell, I keep bringing up the fact this is a balance discussion thread, so anything related to historical accuracy is already out. Every time I bring it up, it’s an allusion to how ridiculous it is.

@VoyoMayPL

Because (you may be surprised), ww2 armies weren’t composed exclusively of elite assault units.

And now we have to trust the devs to sort out what is and isn’t considered elite. Which, I’m sure is a safe and reliable way to ensure our intentions are understood. It certainly won’t result in more M2 Carbines, Federovs and BARs from being introduced.

@VoyoMayPL

It’s called spawn score. (Shit storm begins in 3, 2, 1…)

Congratulations, now you have to address how rosters and loadouts work, and what it means for f2pers with 3 infantry slots by default.

Not to mention, spawn scores are meritocratic by nature- You can only spawn things that are “good” as a reward that correlates to your performance.

What does that mean?

That means if your teeth is getting kicked in by the enemy team without giving you the chance to score enough spawn points, you just keep spawning the low-cost/free option and get sealclubbed even more.

@Stein_Grenadier

Hey, you’re welcome to try your hand at fixing the system if you actually put some thought into the ideas

@VoyoMayPL

At this point I have a feeling you are not discussing with me but with some imaginary enemy in your head.

I’m taking my sweet time going through your posts and arguing against your points one by one.

Or are you saying criticism isn’t a form of discussion?