Weird Homemade Weapons

what books? i asked for reference source. i am looking but i cant find any source that tells me that they added charge, nor any source saying that muzzle velocity of tokarev cartridge in ww2 was same as mauser.

this encyclopedia is not best source for accuracy. in most sources ppsh is rated for 900-1000 rpm. on wiki it even has 1250 rpm quoted from forgotten weapons.

when is then? this could be in 1929 when they designed the cartridge. it is not mentioning nothing about 1952 increase.

also regarding mp 717 (r) this is from wiki:

After the German Army captured large numbers of the PPSh-41 during World War II, a program was instituted to convert the weapon to the standard German submachine gun cartridge – 9×19mm Parabellum. The Wehrmacht officially adopted the converted PPSh-41 as the “MP41(r)”; unconverted PPSh-41s were designated “MP717(r)” and supplied with 7.63×25mm Mauser ammunition. German-language manuals for the use of captured PPShs were printed and distributed in the Wehrmacht.[24] In addition to barrel replacement, converted PPSh-41s also had a magazine adapter installed, allowing them to use MP 40 magazines. The less powerful 9mm round generally reduces the cyclic rate of fire from 800 to 750 RPM. Modern aftermarket conversion kits based on the original Wehrmacht one also exist using a variety of magazines, including Sten magazines.

so if i am understanding this correctly according to this mp717(r) with mauser had 800rpm, while 9mm reduced it further to 750rpm .

Sometime around the 50’s the Czechs and other Soviet countries got around to utilizing 7.62x25 Tokarev in their weapons,as they were made part of the same small arms standardization protocol as the rest of the WARSAW nations.

WHB Smith, “Small Arms of the World”, Stackpole, 1966, describes the Czech load as M48 and as ~20% heavier than the Russian. When the Soviets insisted the Warsaw Pact countries standardize on 7.62x25mm, the Czechs adapted their VZ 24 and CZ 26 submachineguns to 7.62x25 in 1951, but loaded their M48 rounds to get ~1800 fps from an 11 inch barrel. They then adopted the CZ Model 1952 (CZ vz 52) pistol to handle their standard M48 7.62x25 load (developed for the submachinegun). Smith lists Czech 7.62x25 from the pistol at 1600 fps , and lists the Russian 7.62x25 at 1640 fps from the PPSh submachinegun and 1378 fps from the TT33 Tokarev pistol . Given the muzzle flash evident when firing the CZ 52 with Czech ammo, I suspect higher velocity is achieved with slower burning powder not with higher operating pressure. Czech and Russian pistols appear safe with either Czech or Russian commercial or issue ammo but the recoil impulse of the Czech ammo seems more intense.

Here is the book so you can read it:
Small Arms of the World: A Basic Manual of… by W. H. B. Smith (amazon.com)

This rpm is not possible unless it is shooting P-71 ammunition, which was high explosive armor piercing. As for the quote on Forgotten Weapons, Ian never said this:

(Skip to 1:49)

You are misreading it. It says “9mm round reduces the cyclic rate of fire from 800 to 750 RPM”. That means every type of 9 mm round (whether AP, HP, Incediary, FMJ, etc) produces numbers from 800 to 750 RPM. It mentions nothing about the 7.63 round and neither does “Jeff” mention anything about it on his random website.

The Soviet PPSh-41 submachine gun is most distinctive for its very high rate of fire – approximately 1250 rounds/minute – and large drum magazine. What may come as a surprise to those who have not tried it is how this very high rate of fire does not actually make the weapon difficult to control or hold on target. In fact, the PPSh-41 is an easier SMG to shoot effectively than the later PPS-43, at leas tin my opinion.

well it is worded pretty shitty. i checked the source and Bill’s random site has scanned pages from “The small arms review” march 1998 for wehrmacht ppsh41 and it shows that 9mm has 800rpm and idk where that 750rpm has popped out in wiki.

doesnt mention nothing about increasing power.
this is translation from russian master gun magazine, 1996 and it writes about modifications to tokarev rounds

The difficulties which arose with the development of the pistol “TT”, were mirrored in the quantity of ammunition issued for it. Prior to the beginning of the Great Patriotic War, the production of cartridges for TT was limited to a rather small amount. On the cartridge cases made in this period, head stamps are absent. The cartridges were produced only with a regular lead core bullet. The bullet jacket was usually steel, a tombac plating (an alloy of copper and zinc). A powder charge weight was selected using a calculation for obtaining, at 10 meters, a muzzle velocity of 420-450 mps. It gave a bullet energy of 2070 kg/sm2, at the same distance, equal to 60 kg/m, at a mean maximum pressure, which was not superior. The mean charge weight of P-45/1 smokeless powder (porous) depending on a consignment laid within the limits 0,48 - 0,52 grams. This was applied to equipment and the “VP” powder (Viscose, for Pistols), whose weight oscillated from 0,48 up to 0,6 grams. The grain of the powder P-45/1, was a dark green color in the form of a short, rather thick cylinder, whereas the grain “VP” represents a thin long cylinder of greenish color. This powder was used in cartridges made until 1946. The production of this ammunition was sharply increased in the 40s with the beginning of the mass issuing of SMG’s.

In 1941, for SMG, the cartridge with the “P-41” bullet was introduced into the inventory. The cartridge with an armor-piercing + incendiary bullet and well-tried steel core - for defeating enemy personnel, for firing at petrol tanks, motorcycles, automobiles and airplanes.
The “P-41” bullet , with a weight 4,3 - 5,1 grams, had a black tip with a red band.

In 1943 a cartridge with tracer bullet “PT”, with a weight of 5,2 - 5,5 grams was also produced. It gave a bright red line at distances up to 400 meters and was used for indicating targets in combat. The cupola of a bullet was green in color. The new plants, in addition, were attracted to production of cartridges with a regular bullet, since 1942, placed a head stamp of the manufacturer and year of issue on the cartridge case. And, since 1944, when the productivity of plants reached maximum, large plants, in addition to steel, put the month of manufacturing on the cartridge. Smaller plants put the quarter date of manufacture on the cartridge case. The increase in the issue of ammunition demanded plenty of scarce materials: brass for cartridge case and bimetal for manufacturing of shell cases. On the other hand, observance of specifications was not required of rigid long-term ammunition storage - they immediately went to the regular army. Such a situation allowed materials to be partially substituted. Four plants out of eight, releasing this category of ammunition, had run in production, cartridges with cheaper bimetallic cartridge cases, occasionally also steel cartridge cases without a coating. There were bullets with a steel jacket without a coating or plated by brass instead of tombac. Engaging new plants in the manufacturing of cartridges, before not releasing ammunition and usage of simplified military technologies lowered quality of production. Later, once after termination of the Great Patriotic War, the remaining ammunition issued up to 1946, was practically completely given away to troops for practice firing or were destroyed. In the post-war time, the production quotas of ammunition were sharply reduced, many plants starting peace production. Because of reduction of deliveries of a bimetal until 1949, the cartridge was produced only with a brass cartridge case. As of 1949, there was steel brass…(?) (Word here is not clear. Derivative from brass. Probably means a jacket plated by a lamina of brass. That is Galvanotechnics?) cartridge cases, the production which was finished by 1952, with restoration of the issue bimetallic cartridge cases, soon completely superseded brass. At the same time, modifications were made in the design of a tracer bullet. On a carrying on part of a bullet there is a small bench, length is augmented by millimeter and a little weight increases.

The last modernization of the cartridge was in 1955, when instead of the old lead core bullet, a new one was adopted with the cheaper and solid steel core. For preservation of the former weight, the length of a bullet was increased up to 16,5 mm. Since 1951, the new bullet, step-by-step, replaced, at miscellaneous plants, production of the old bullet. Except for battle cartridges, cartridges of a secondary role were also produced. During the post-war years, blank cartridges appeared. Instead of a bullet, it had an elongated cartridge case, pressed into a “star”. Dummy cartridges made prior to the beginning of the 50s, differed from battle ammo by two or three cross-sectional flutes on the cartridge case. Later, cross-sectional flutes were changed to four longitudinal. The corporations - developer of rifle weapon for the needs produced mock-up cartridges. From battle cartridges , minus the powder, left with the subsequent coating of the cartridge with nickel or cadmium.

also it shows performance of tokarev to be anywhere from 420m/s (1378fps) to 450m/s(1477fps) for TT

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7.63x25 Mauser, in normal trim, is usually an 85grain bullet going 1300-1400fps

i saw that. like i said it is written in their website as 1250 and in other video where he is shooting it ian is talking that ppsh 41 has double the fire rate of mp40 which is 550-600 rpm. like i said he was quoted, i didnt say he was correct.

well i hate that there is no standardized testing on same barrel length weapon. i would guess your data is from c96 which has longer barrel.

while searching for data on tokarev on one forum someone mentioned that higher velocity of tokarev compared to mauser is cause bullet is lighter. mauser had lead tip, while tokarev has iron making it lighter and giving it more speed.

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A valid point my good sir.

Same, Stalin was getting a little to handsy with his special book lol.

Tbf, the TT’s barrel length is 116 mm (4.6 in)

Tbf, the TT’s barrel length is 116 mm (4.6 in), which is right in the middle of both C96 types:
140 mm (5.5 in) (pre-Bolo) 99 mm (3.9 in) (post-Bolo).

The weight of the bullet is something that affects stopping power and interior ballistics. Anything that decides the velocity has to be powder charge related or barrel length. This is why 7.62 has more stopping power than .556 but .556 will go right through you and destroy everything in your body. Interior ballistics is what caused the Soviets to switch to the 5.45x39mm.

you are wrong. if same energy is applied to object of lesser mass then that object travels at greater velocity
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thus object with less mass if on same charge have higher velocity.

well if you check type 80 that is more or less copy of M712 Schnellfeuer with tokarev rounds you will see muzzle velocity of 470m/s, while M712 Schnellfeuer has 425m/s. same barrel length different, one with tokarev one with mauser. and it basically shows that mauser has 10% less muzzle velocity

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Internal ballistics - Wikipedia

reducing the amount of propellant that can be used, directly reducing the bullet weight and muzzle velocity combination that contributes to lethality, (as detailed in the published cartridge specifications linked herein for comparison). The 6.5 Grendel, on the other hand, is capable of firing a significantly heavier bullet (see link) than the 5.56 NATO out of the AR-15 family of weapons, with only a slight decrease in muzzle velocity, perhaps providing a more advantageous performance tradeoff.

You have to remember that the Type 80 was designed in the 70s and started being mass-produced in the 80s. With this being said, the Chinese have designed and were using their own versions of the Tokarev like the Type P. Along with this, after 1952, the 7.62 had its charge powder upped causing the increase in velocity, so the Chinese were getting a meth-induced Tokarev.

idk what are you trying to prove here? i am not talking about stopping power or penetration or lethality, i am talking about pure muzzle velocity. if charge and barrel length are the same, bullet with smaller mass will have bigger muzzle velocity. this is pure physics.

you never quoted source about upping charge powder in 1952. from all sources that i found tokarev round had bigger charge from the start and there is no mention of any 1952 increase in charge.
you quoted only that they standardized tokarev rounds in warsaw pact cause czechs loaded more charge in their guns.

historical changes in that magazine that i quoted earlier should have caught changes cause it went through 18 types of bullets that were made between start in late 1920s with prototype of type 1930 and 1955 with their changes. there was no change in 1952 nor in 1955 regarding the powder charge. in 1952 only change was change of brass cartridge to bimetallic and change in tracer bullets.

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The Czechs and other Soviet countries added more powder charge to the 7.62 Tokarev in the early 1950s specifically starting in 1952. I have said this already. This proves my point with the early Soviet 7.62x25 Tokarev still listed as an 85grain bullet with a muzzle velocity between 1300-1400fps from a handgun and not being increased until later in the early 1950s.

The Soviet Union was made up of other Soviet States. The 7.62 Tokarev, did not change until after 1952 when the other Soviets got their hands on it and changed it by adding more powder. Magazine records the Russian use, the Soviet use.

you only quoted that czechs added extra charge when they were forced to switch to tokarev round, not entire soviet union, nor russians to be exact, nor that extra charge was standard for the warsaw pact.
if you compare muzzle velocity of cz-52 that has ~same barrel length with tt33, you will see that cz-52 has 500 m/s (1,640 ft/s), while tt-33 has 420 (1378 ft/s)-450 m/s (1,476 ft/s) that is consistent with prototype 1930 cartridge for tt-33 and cz-52 has performance of czech tokarev rounds probably.

from all sources that i found tokarev added extra charge compared to mauser at the start of the production in 1930. 1952 20% extra charge is only for czechs and their tokarev ammo.

and this is exactly the point i was making. extra charge for tokarev wasnt standard, but it was made by individual countries. tokarev at start had extra charge compared to mauser.

Russia replaced the Tokarev round with 9 mm and stopped producing it. The Czechs were the only ones making 7.62 Tokarev at that time. And guess how many countries were using the Tokarev round after the Czechs messed with its powder…

But if you want to say the source is wrong, by all means, read it for yourself:

Small arms of the world : a basic manual of small arms : Smith, W. H. B. (Walter Harold Black), 1901-1959 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
P.S. It is long

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Nope, even with the barrel lowered to 3.83, they would still even out to be the same.

this is highly suspect. all sources that i saw provide speed for full 140mm barrel at ~1400fps. i never saw that any source provided 1575 fps for mauser.

When I originally questioned a hotter Tokarev round from 1952 you said it was due to a change by Soviet design committee:

The Czechs producing a hotter round is not that - even if it became a standard or default standard ammo for Tokarev-using weapons after then.

Lots of people make different loads for all sorts of nominally “standard” ammo, and always have done - that wasn’t the question I asked.

Please stop with the arguing - you were wrong, there was no soviet-designated upload of the Tokarev round in 1952.

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Whoops, my mistake. It doesn’t change the fact that the new Tokarev round had its powder changed and was the only Tokarev round being produced.

As for the fps, it is the same as the 7.63 Mauser. Sorry to disappoint you.

like i said most sources provide between 1390-1450 fps for full barrel mauser. like czech that had hotter tokarev, there exists hotter mauser and i wouldnt exclude those numbers from that.

btw from one forum

I have Western Cartridge Company Ammunition Handbook from about 1938 and a catalog from 1935. They both list the following loads.

.30 Mauser, Bullet: 86 grain RN metal case or RN soft point
Instrumental velocity at 25 ft. from muzzle: 1370 f.s.
Energy at 25 ft. from muzzle: 357 ft.lbs.
Barrel length: 5 1/2"
Penetration in 7/8" pine boards at 20 ft.: 11

Winchester Catalog 83 from 1925 says:
7.63 m/m Mauser: Smokeless powder. Full patch or hollow soft point. Adapted to Borchardt and Mauser Automatic pistols and rifles.

Data: 86 grain bullet, 1395 fps / 375 ft.lbs. at muzzle, 5 1/2" barrel.

Winchester Ammunition Guide from 1941 says:
86 grains F.P., 1420 fps / 385 ft.lbs., 5 1/2" barrel, penetration 7/8" soft pine boards at 15 ft.: 11

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I can’t say for what people post on forums. But what I can say is this: the author of this book went out to professionals who have handled these weapons during their heyday and have tested them and even some of the manufacturers of these famous guns and cartridges. Also, this is the 3rd revised version, so everything was corrected.

well i find them credible cause they also posted images of those sources, but sadly this was posted 18 years ago and those images dont exist on host anymore.

i would trust cartridge manufacturers to actually have correct information in their handbooks and catalogs, compared to author that needed to compile whole book about various weapons from various sources. also never trust one source, but check from multiple sources.

never say everything. this is book from 1973 and some information in it could easily be wrong.

btw
this is data for 7.63-mm Mauser Pistol M1932 from this site that claims source :
Foreign Military Weapons and Equipment, Vol. III, Infantry Weapons, Pamphlet No. 30-7-4, Department of the Army, 1954.

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Well, no.
I can relatively confidentally say that HP bullet would do alot more damage than FMJ regardless does it weight more or less.
If we stick strickly to FMJ rounds this often is true with pistol calibers.
.45 > 9mm > 7.62

Again, no.
7.62x39 has quite poor terminal ballistics and always had, it does pretty much exactly what you described as 5.56 it goes straight thru.
If I recall theres only 2 types 7.62x39 FMJ ever done to military use the soviet M43? and yugo M67?
( cba to check )
Anyway, to keep things short the yugo has greater chance to yawn upon impact thus causing greater damage.

While the 5.56 in good conditions yawns almost instantly upon impact aka entry wound in shoulder and exit wound around ass.
Mentioned good conditions due to fact that under certain speed 5.56 do not yawn and causes minimal damage.
This has been noticed by using 5.56 ammo designed for M16 and shot from shorter barreled M4.

But anyway, terminal ballistics arent exactly simple as more weight / speed = more damage.
Bullets behave quite differently.