Tank balance - yet again some controversial thoughts on my part

Mess Room
1

What if we would move some BR2 tanks into BR1, some BR3 into BR2, some BR4 into BR3 and some BR5 into BR4?

I know I know, sounds crazy, but hear me out…

First a couple statements on my part:

  • there are without a doubt a couple of vehicles that perform too well in their current BRs

  • especially BR5 has tons of vehicles that are obsolete

  • BR3 vehicles will always be the hardest to balance, because they fight both BR5 and BR1

Now my proposal in more detail:

If a couple of BR2 vehicles would move into BR1, with the goal of BR1 having a better fighting chance against BR3, then BR3 would become less of issue for new players to deal with - of course it would also be better for some TT vehicles to be foldered, so that unlocking “decent” tanks from the get go wouldn’t be such an issue.

While at the same time, BR3 needs more “glass canon tanks” that are able to fight BR5 vehicles - while again at the same time being able to get hurt by low BR tanks.

So here is what I would propose each BRs “top choice changes” should be:

BR1 Allies:

  • Crusader
    The Crusader is a literal glass canon, so much so that it usually gets one hit killed by even regular German BR1 tanks, however despite it having bad post pen damage its AP capabilities are quite decent.

  • M8 Scott
    The Scott is quite decent at its indirect fire role, however while its armor is a bit better than the Crusader, it is non the less still not strong enough to deal with many BR1 vehicles, not to mention HE and infantry can target its open top crew.
    Its HEAT will be a good adition to fight against BR3 if needed.

BR1 Axis:

  • Panzer III J1
    Essentially the same tank as the BR1 Panzer III J, just with a bit better turret rotation speed and better pen that can engage somewhat decently BR3 armor.

  • STUG III A (TT)
    Very pointless vehicle in BR2, but in BR1 could be the first access for Germany to HEAT, which would give it a fighting chance against BR3 vehicles.
    For those who dont like the idea of adding a vehicle to the TT that was only build 6 times - STUG III B was build 300 times and was basically the same vehicle.
    Also to keep it more in line with its role as an assault gun (not a TD) it should get HE and HEAT instead of AP, similar to Scott.

  • HE for 75/32 M41 “Semovente”
    That SPG is possiby already great for its BR - however sees a bit too little use because of its lack in HE, such a change would give those that want to larp as Italy more of a reason to so so.

-BR1 Soviets:

  • SU-76M (TT)
    Its quite a shame that this iconic and mass produced vehicle is sitting behind a paywall - even more so since it is quite a good vehicle. That being said it is still only a SPG and unlike the Semovente even open top. Having this in BR1 would right away give Soviets some counter to later German armor.

-BR1 Japan

one thing first, Japanese low BR tanks are horribly bad so all the iconic BR1 (literally only Ha Go) tanks would need to move into the “only use until you unlock something better” category.

  • Ho-I (with HEAT)
    This tank is horrible on its own and already is better than all the previous unlocks ( says alot about Japanese vehicles ) its biggest issue is that its got only 43mm of pen - terrible even in BR1, but for some reason the devs decided this tank would be worth of BR2 (incredible)
    So to fix low BR Japan this tank should get its HEAT shells from warthunder- which have 90mm of pen.
    This would still put it into the same power level of the other nations pen and armor protection.

  • Ho-Ni I
    100 pen is quite good, being open top and having no armor is not, moving it into BR1 would give Japan a decent AT tool from the get go.

Now to the actual controversial stuff:

-BR2 Allies:

  • Sherman
    I strongly believe that 7.5cm Shermans suck because of their poor post pen damage, while they do have better armor than BR1 vehicles their overall poor performance should put them into BR2, especially considering my changes to BRs.

-BR2 Axis

  • STUG III F
    Germany relied HEAVILY on Stugs and their low and mid BRs should represent that - it has a strong gun for BR2, but only 50mm of very poor armor, this vehicle being BR2 makes undoubtedly sense (together with the upcoming Marders).

  • Panzer III N (better HEAT)
    in warthunder Panzer III has access to 100mm pen HEAT - instead of the weaker 80mm pen HEAT, this alone would give Axis some decent AP capabilities.

-BR2 Soviets:

  • T34
    Okay okay hear me out, I am talking about the first T34 with poor turret armor, no commander cupola and one less crew member, considering my BR changes, this would make only sense + all of those that like to larp early Soviets can do so without breaking the game.

-BR2 Japan

  • Chi-Nu
    It has 100pen and 50mm of armor, why on earth is it BR3 to begin with?

So much for low BR, now to high BR

-BR3 Allies

  • M10 GMC “Wolverine”
    Since basic Shermans moved to BR2, M10 can easily move to BR3, its gun is quite nice for BR3 but a bit weak for BR4, especially considering Panthers exist.

-BR3 Soviets

  • SU85 (not M)
    Its got regular T34 armor, while having a gun capable of dealing with higher BR vehicles. Its got less armor than KV1, no MG and still not enough to fight BR5 German armor, it being BR3 is more than fair - especially since my changes allow lower BRs to fight it aswell.

  • KV 2
    Again, chill and listen before you go mad,
    same armor as KV1 but unlike KV1 completely overkill against low BR - so much so that a regular KV1 would be more effective. Its terrible reload speed means it needs to hide and wait for its gun to be ready, yes it can fight even very high BR armor, but at a very high cost, BR3 is more than reasonable, especially considering my low BR changes. Also it is a super early war vehicle, it being BR4 hurts immersion.

-BR3 Axis

  • Panzer IV H
    Pretty much the same thing as the other BR3 Panzer IV, lowering it into BR3 is a no brainer considering my changes

  • Stug III G (TT)
    Again a massive shame that such a vehicle is sitting behind a paywall, not to mention it was Germanies most produced tank of the entire war - Germanies only thing it needs at BR3 is something with consistently more than 50mm of armor, adding a Stug III G into the TT is a must. Also it should get its iconic top mounted and shielded MG and arguably a coax MG, considering its actually an assault gun and not only a TD.

-BR3 Japan
Well… Na-To isnt terrible to be honest, it has APCR rounds which are already “just” good enough to kinda fight Jumbos, well at least on paper.

-BR4 Allies

  • M4A2 (76) W
    Well its got better ammo than the other Shermans, but its still just a Sherman, its poor armor should matter in BR placement

  • Sherman Firefly
    Its just not good enough and cant rival German BR5, yes the 17 pounder has great pen, but zero post pen damage, while it also has poor armor, it makes no sense to sit in BR5.

  • M36 Jackson
    US should get access to a 90mm gun at BR4, yes the Jackson would be pretty powerful, but German top Tier tanks are increadibly hard to crack open, this is more than reasonable.

-BR4 Axis

  • Tiger E
    I dont know why you people here are so obsessed with the Tiger being “too strong” for BR4 even though Panther is already BR4. 100mm of armor isn’t too much for BR4 anyways.

  • Panther (removal of top mounted MG)
    Panther were known to be bad infantry support tanks, their poor rear armor meant they could not lead assaults into urban areas, so them recieving a nerf in anti infantry power makes sense.

  • Jagdpanzer IV L70
    I dont know why people are crazy about this one, its got 80mm of angled armor yes - but when I check the effective armor in Enlisted, its got just under 130mm of such - which should easily enough be penetrated by both Soviet and US guns ( 7.6mm Sherman has just above 130 pen, 85mm T34 has above 140 pen)
    If this isn’t the case, the devs should take a look into it and fix this.

  • Nashorn
    Almost 500 of those were build, this tank should absolutely become a TT vehicle - unlike the Dicker Max, which only 2!!! were ever made. Its got zero armor and no MG and is open top, more than fair to have a early access to the mighty long 88 gun.

-BR4 Soviets

  • IS 1
    Its so heavily outclassed in BR5, its unbelievable. Yes it got better armor than T34 85, but its big and bulky, it doesn’t really make T34s obsolete, it being BR4 isnt a problem at all.

  • SU 100
    Hear me out, its worse than you think
    Yes its gun is quite good for Soviet standards, but still pretty much on Panther levels, together with 75mm of armor and a nasty cupola weakspot, its more than fair placing it into BR4.

-BR4 Japan
Well I guess high BR Japan is kinda good, but I would give Chi-To also access to APCR like its BR3 counterpart, since it would be just barley enough to fight Jumbos.

3 Likes
2

Kinda like this. Most of it actually makes sense

3 Likes
3

Well I am just thinking about how the new “reserve” tank mechanic makes balance very weird, and in general is a rather “overcomplicated” mechanic to add, while a simple adjustment to BRs would solve this issue even better.

4

Tank Destroyers

I like most of the stuff to do with tank destroyer. Most of them can go down at least 1 BR

The general rule that is acceptable (IMO) ist that tank destroyers are available 1 BR below the Turreted versions with the same gun. Which is basically what you have presented. I have posted this before and I still think it should be this way. (there are exceptions like the Jagpanther and Panzer IV/70 that would be too armoured.)

I think the semovente makes a decent case study, Its very good AT at BR 1, but still reasonably rare. Perhaps Having HE would see it used alot more (I think it should get HE)

Tanks

As for the medium tank changes, I am not as excited about moving Shermans and T-34s to BR 2. While it does fix the awkard uptiers into tigers/panther, all it does is shift it and seriously messes with 20mm, 37mm and 47mm tank from BR 1. (AKA the new players). They would be ideal for clubbing, especially the sherman!

Sherman

In the Shermans Case, the change that would make a great difference is giving it M61 shot ammunition. All of a sudden its very solid. Yes uptiering into Tigers and panthers is still not good. Although M61 shot does work on Tiger Commander cupola, and side shots(not ideal) Also that 50 cal damage needs to be reverted back

Crusader

I personally love the crusader, Its HE is decent and it has good penetration AMMO (which could still be better. it has better ammo available). I would like the 2 pounder Version of the Crusader for BR 1. Maybe the 3 crew is enough for a case to be in BR 1? I just dont know…trying not to be bias because I really like this one and find it effective

Panzer IIIN

I would like the Better 100m Pen Ammo BUT Maybe it should go to the Panzer IVs instead? to make them more appealing?

T-34

Like the sherman, It would be Hell for BR 1 20mm, 37mm and 47mm tanks. At least All Panzer IVs and below versions can be penned frontally by a 37/45mm gun.

KV 2

KV 2 as far as im Concerned its just a lower DPM KV 1. Its unpopular here, but as a warthunder player, it belongs with KV 1 IMO.

I agree that IS 1, Sherman 76, Firefly and Jackson should be BR 4. Again as a warthunder player, these matchups arent right where they are. Its wierd that these guys are all BR 5 while a Panther tank is Br 4 (its arguable that panthers could be BR 5 because they are mostly better than tigers and harder to kill)

I dont play Japan much, but i know their Vehicle and Plane BR ratings are all over the shop just from playing them in Warthunder (in a bad way).

4 Likes
5

I would have argued against Panzer III N buff with a better HEATs, but then again, if its not buffed on its own but along with other nations receiving T-34, Shermans and Chi-Nu, eh, why not.

Ho-I already got HEATs, more than APHEs at this point in fact.

i honestly was thinking about moving Chi-Ha Kai to BR1 and adding it to tech tree as well, unlocked before Ho-I.

1 Like
6

No, stop robbing me of my exclusive event rewards. People invested either time or money to get those stuff. They definitely should not be available in classic TT.

And stop using HA and similar nonsense to justify your agendas. It’s obvious that HA argument in relation to Enlisted is used only as justification when making unpopular or controversial changes.

You simply want to invalidate the value of past events. With disrespect to all past event participants.

The same goes for you. Stop wanting to copy paste unique premium vehicles that people have paid for into TT.

It’s extremely disrespectful. People are paying for exclusivity.

Overall unnecessary and way too drastic change.

Plus BR1 definitely shouldn’t be overbloated with stuff. (There’s already way too many BR1 vehicles)

10

curious where you saw HA mentioned anywhere??

1 Like
11

Nowhere. I was just anticipating arguments like “Chi ha was the most prominent ww2 japanese tank and therefore its variants should be in TT” and so.
Or are you telling me that the tank needs to be added to TT for balance reasons? I hope not, lol.

Nah, event rewards shouldn’t be added to TT.

But I’m not saying that it shouldn’t be possible to get past event rewards. But as James said, they should be harder to get than they were the first time.

If that’s not the case, you’ll totally invalidate the value of past events.

1 Like
12

I was just asking about the comment. I didnt say anything about tech tree event additions or HA. (original question wasnt replying to me. just wondering if you were asking in the quote above ^^^)

1 Like
13

That was a rhetorical question. Because from my point of view there are only two somewhat sensible arguments for adding past event rewards to the tech tree. (Although I personally find both of them not good enough).

Either HA or balance.

I’d be all for the more commonly used stuff being in TT and rare prototypes only in events or as premiums.
But it’s too late for that. And I don’t agree with devaluing of exclusivity of past event rewards or premiums.

1 Like
14

I bought the Stug A and I will never use it in my life again, it being BR1 with HE and HEAT will make me use it. Heck it was released as a counter to T34 back in the days, if anything my change would be respectful instead of disrespectful.

I don’t know why this specifically is an issue for you, there are alot of TT vehicles I wish had premium version, so I can bring two of them into battle.

Noone complained when when the devs did exactly that in the past, well we had a different system to be fair, but still, the ability to bring multiple tanks isnt bad, also you pay to unlock something at a BR right away…

Also when you talk about the “HA” reasoning being bad…

Dont tell me you dont want other to get STUG III G… the most used German vehicle - how can you possibly be against that?

2 Likes
15

Again, I dont think this should be the case, if it right now is immortal to its counterpart guns then this should change - also keep in mind at BR4 it can only be downtiered with 1 BR, and my changes should theoretically allow BR3 to fight it aswell.

16

That’s up to you. I bought it. I have it in one of my presets. And I even used recently when I was farming fast points for event at low BRs.

That’s not what I am talking about.

There’s absolutely a huge difference in duplicating a vehicle that everyone can have for free (since it’s in TT) and making it premium with some unique camo or something.

Than if you take a unique vehicle (Which can be obtained by some higher effort or financial support of the game) and just put it in TT so anyone can get it just by simple playing for free.

Your argument is intellectually dishonest.

17

Well I do see where you are coming from, for me this has never been an issue tho, I have quite alot of Premium vehicles and I don’t see them as a unique token, rather I am a WW2 tank nerd and I had no other option but to buy them.

2 Likes
18

I am aware that those specific vehicles would be the most to suffer from my changes - however lets be honest would we really miss Panzer II? It will only be used for the first couple rounds for a new player anyways. We might aswell remove those vehicles or move them to the rider class or something, as a light tank category.

I think there is a reason why the other campaigns didn’t start with poor auto gun tanks after Moscow CBT, so that new players get something half decent from the get go…

Also I said this:

19

Haha i would :rofl:

I love the panzer II, panzer III b/e, ab 41, panzer 38t, m14/42 :laughing:

20

It would be great if KV2 could stay at level 3 like 105 and 120
Because they all have their own obvious flaws and can be destroyed by equipment with a lower level.
But I also hope that Germany can get 100+ level 3 tanks or 88 guns
Because N3 is just a replacement version of T28, M8 and Type 2

But I think the T34 rocket should not stay at level 4 either
Because he does not have the ability to fight against level 4 tanks other than No. 4

21

I won’t lie to you man, a BR III 75mm Sherman and the base Jumbo in BR IV all die the same to the Tiger II. Lolpen straight through the front with no hesitation. If a Sherman fighting V is the issue, then the Jumbo should be an issue. We’re pretty used to our tanks fighting things that out class it in every way possible. Gotta give them Germans something to enjoy after all. Lol

It’s the same 76 that’s on every WWII 76 tank we got (give or take some model numbers) and that’s what we got to work with. Lol. Only chance is hitting the cheek of the turret. Good luck hitting 2 pixels at range before the Panther lolpens you. Also, the Panther can pen a Jumbo in 3 separate areas from the front. No I’m not telling where

GIMME 90mm

1 Like
22

Arguably Panthers can move to BR5, in the end 76Jumbo VS Panther is still pretty fair all things considered - however by that logic Tiger II H would pretty much be a BR6 vehicle. Man how easy BR placements would be if Tiger II H would have never been added…

2 Likes
23

I mean all we need is its proper counter part, the Super Pershing, and all will be good. Well, so long as its armor works as it should. I just have problems believing a Tiger II can front pen both a Panther and a Pershing at the same time without any effort