Since rebalancing is coming

[ParaDivision]

here the link to the best rebalancing post ever in this forum: Making Tank Destroyers and Glass Cannons Viable

perfectly thought out and every recommendation is a strong improvement over the current placements.
my only addition: the current BR2 stug needs to be lowered to BR1, where it would be a great tank compared to being a useless tank in its current br2.

copied text of the old post:

" In their current implementation, tank destroyers, assault guns, casemates and glass cannons are very weak and have no advantages over using conventional tanks

A good example of this case is the StuG series of assault guns versus the late-war Panzer IV (F2, G, J). At the same BR, the StuG offers no tangible advantages compared to the Panzer IV:

StuG III:

• Smaller profile, perhaps better survivability from the front

• Casemate, much worse gun handling and flexibility (huge disadvantage)

• No coaxial MG

Panzer IV:

• Turreted, allows for more flexibility in battle

• Coaxial MG

• Somewhat worse protection from the front

• Higher profile

When most maps are corridors, it offers no major incentive to playing casemates and the like when conventional tanks offer the same level of firepower and much more flexibility.

The increased mobility of many of these tank destroyers is completely useless considering the layout of most maps in this game, and the role tanks play in direct fire support.

This brings us to the whole concept of a tank destroyer, which is mounting a large gun on a comparatively small chassis. See the StuG III, where it mounted a 75mm PaK 40 when the regular Panzer III chassis couldn’t. Their purpose was to destroy other tanks at a fairly cheap cost.

Their BR placements in-game should reflect this purpose. All assault guns, casemates and TD’s should be lowered by 1 or 2 BRs, depending on their competitors and the timing of their development relative to WWII.

Here are some proposals for BR changes:

GERMANY
8.8cm Flak 37 Sfl. BR 4 → 3
15 cm Panzerwerfer BR 4 → 3
ALL STUGS: BR 3 → 2
Jagdpanzer IV BR 4 → 3
Panzer IV/70 (A) BR 4 → 3
Panzer IV/70 (V) BR 5 → 4

USA
M10 Wolverine BR 4 → 3
M18 Hellcat BR 4 → 3
Achilles BR 4 → 3

JAPAN
Ho-Ni III BR 3 → 2

SOVIETS
SU-85M BR 5 → 4
KV-2 BR 4 → 3

Still though, these placements are still kinda unbalanced, which emphasizes the need for BR decompression."

[Leandrokh]

BR3 is a scam, you end up playing against BR5 99% of the time.

[Mopuit]

Except for Japan

[Leandrokh]

Very true.

[Stein_Grenadier]

@ParaDivision

Still though, these placements are still kinda unbalanced, which emphasizes the need for BR decompression."

If you want to emphasize their “tank destroyer” role, you should also vouch for a modification to their ammo loadouts to reflect their status.

A broad-sweeping 1-2 BR reduction is fine provided that their ammo is divided into 3/4s anti-tank rounds and 1/4s HE.

This would allow tank destroyers to consistently destroy any armor while balancing their firepower with their limited capacity for fire support.

[ParaDivision]

tank destroyers, especially stugs, irl loaded whatever ammo they needed for the coming mission. if they expected few tanks and lots of infantry/soft targets, they loaded lots of HE shells. if lots of smoke was needed, they loaded that.

it has no realism to force them artificially to have more AT shells. optimally players would be able to pick whatever ammo they want to take, the current 50-50 split is very suboptimal, as 25-75 at/he would be better, even against many tanks.

[Naohmcete]

most of time, for be exact in a 90% of games testing I end in br V using br III gear :3

[Ron_McKracker]

@ParaDivision

M18 Hellcat BR 4 → 3

I caught so much flak for saying this should be moved down to BR III, but I will be vindicated.

[Valkay]

@ParaDivision

15 cm Panzerwerfer BR 4 → 3

Its rockets are deadly, yeah yeah but its just a truck with some rockets on it while it shares the BR with a tank that has its main gun, MG decent armour plus the rockets.
I simply don’t understand how this is considered fair by DF.

[GeneralBrus]

@Stein_Grenadier

A broad-sweeping 1-2 BR reduction is fine provided that their ammo is divided into 3/4s anti-tank rounds and 1/4s HE.

which would make them even more useless, SPGs need HE even more so than regular tanks, because of having no MGs.

[iso_seppo123]

@ParaDivision

M10 Wolverine BR 4 → 3

This tank is so bad that nobody would use it even if it was br 2.

[Myrm1don]

You Forgot the sherman 76 W, Firefly, and IS-1 to BR 4

[Stein_Grenadier]

@ParaDivision

it has no realism to force them artificially to have more AT shells. optimally players would be able to pick whatever ammo they want to take, the current 50-50 split is very suboptimal, as 25-75 at/he would be better, even against many tanks.

Except the ammo split I talked about was never about realism, but about balancing more powerful cannons placed into lower BRs.

[album_et_rubrum]

Copy-paste of my idea to Make Tank Destroyers Great Again:

@album_et_rubrum

All tank destroyers should be promoted, cause you hardly see them in game. And that’s totaly not historicaly accurate. So IMHO they could make a special slot for them which one could be shared with 1 infantry slot. I mean if someone doesn’t want to play a tank destoyer, still can play infantry squad on that slot. But if wants to, then has got + 1 vehicle slot. Also there could be given more exp. points for kills made by the tank destroyer ( I mean by gun and coaxial, not the personal weapons of the squad).

EDIT: And changing BR will have no effect, cause people will always prefer the rotating tank turret over the chassis of the tank destroyer very difficult to maneuver and additionaly with gun placed so low.

[Luvs2spooge]

@Leandrokh

BR3 is a scam, you end up playing against BR5 99% of the time.

If your Allies

[Valkay]

if my allies are what?

[AquilaGao]

@ParaDivision

irl loaded whatever ammo they needed

Yes… only in this game letting these 75mms down to low BRs will simply let them sit on the edge of the map and spam HE. Sure, I bet irl they loaded HE to destroy as much infrantry as possible, but unfotunately we cannot just have one side being the most effective at destroying the enemy team becasue it could irl. The low amount of HE is so that your idea of “tank destroyers aren’t used to destoy tanks right now becasue there are better tanks” actually works and they can concentrate on destroying other tanks. Sometimes realism is less important than balance.

[Luvs2spooge]

you get BR5 99% of the time if your playing with Allies

[Valkay]

@Luvs2spooge

you get BR5 99% of the time if you are playing with Allies

smol grammar issue

[Comet92220]

Well it is with anyone tbh.

I have been playing with the “suffer any faction” option at BR3 recently and regardless of the faction I was assigned to (german and soviet mostly) it was mostly BR5 games.