Shotgun History and Realism vs Balance

I figure this is worth talking about, so here goes, summarized as best I can.

Shotgun availability.

It makes sense, historically speaking, for the Allied factions to have access to some short of shotgun. There were a number of models fielded by the US army and their allies during the war.

As it is currently, Soviets have access to the TOZ in Moscow and Berlin. It makes sense in Moscow, because territorial forces were raised to defend the motherland and frequently asked to bring their own weapons, and shotguns were common in civilian ownership. It makes little to no sense that they have the same gun in Berlin, where territorial forces wouldn’t have been sent as far as I can tell (if I’m wrong, I’d love to learn.)

Right now, the Axis have access to the Luftwaffe M30 Drilling in Tunisia and Berlin. This makes some sense in Tunisia, since the Drilling was meant to be a survival firearm for downed german pilots fending for themselves and dealing with hostile african wildlife, but I doubt the infantry would have had access to or been using the drilling on the ground (again, I could be wrong, let me know.) In Berlin, the germans having some sort of shotgun makes sense, though the Drilling was an expensive and high-quality weapon unlikely to be in service with the Volkssturm, unless they’d found one or there were wealthy merchants or aristocrats participating in the fighting. In addition, the gun’s three barrels: one cylinder bore for slugs, one choked for birdshot, and one 9.3mm rifle barrel. The rifle barrel isn’t useable in game, and I think that’s a shame, even though it wouldn’t be any more effective than the Berdan is in Moscow.

The shotgun barrels, however, should behave differently, and they don't. In this shot, the right barrel is on the right target and the left on the left, at my best approximation of 10 meters, as well as a diagram of the effect of different choke levels on birdshot dispersion. Following this example, the left barrel should have about 19 inches at this distance and the right barrel should have between 9 and 15 inches (I can't find good info on how much the right barrel was choked.


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Now, let me touch on ammo, starting with the US since the best information I have available is for them, comparing history to our in-game, universal shotgun shell.

In-game, our shells are 2.75 inch (we know since six of them fit in the 1912), containing 12 pellets doing 2.4 damage each. The datacard says these pellets are flying at 200m/s, and are 2.06mm, smaller than #9 birdshot, which is smaller than most people use to kill even small birds and smaller than would be remotely effective against people. You'd also be able to fit way more than 12 in the shell.

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Historically, during WW2, The US would have been using the M19 2.75 inch 12 guage 00 buckshot brass-hulled shells. They contain 9, .33 inch pellets, roughly equivalent to .32acp projectiles, at around the normal velocity for such shells which is 1200f/s or 365m/s.

The M30 Drilling was issued to pilots with 20x 12 guage shells loaded with Brenneke Slugs, 20x 12 guage birdshot shells, and 20 rounds of soft-pointed 9.3x74mmR. I can’t find good data on what size birdshot or number of pellets for those loads, or how long either shell was.

I can’t find any sources with any data regarding a gun like the TOZ-B, dating to WW2 or earlier, or really any information about russian shotguns before about 1950, but that doesn’t mean it didn’t exist or wouldn’t have been used by territorial forces.

Now for my suggestions, based entirely on the above information and my own opinions:

US 1912
In game, the Walther PP and PPK pistols (perhaps others, I didn’t look at all of them) are chambered in .32acp, and do 5.0 damage per shot. At 2.4 damage per pellet, pellets are doing less damage than the smallest caliber pistol in game, the TK, which is chambered for .25acp and does 4.4 damage. I’d suggest making the shells, in game, for the 1912 9x .32 caliber pellets doing 5.0 damage each, travelling at 365m/s to reflect the ammo that would have been in use at the time. This would mean a hit power of 45, which would be an absolute killer to probably 40 or so meters before the spread got too wide and too random, and balanced by adjusting the dispersion and by the shotgun’s limited capacity and long reload.

M30 Drilling
If the Axis has to have this gun, it should only exist in Tunisia, and the left barrel should fire 1oz Brenneke Slugs while the right barrel fires birdshot, and give us the rifle barrel too. The slug should be travelling at 475m/s, dealing damage equivalent to the Berdan (less than realistic, but balance is a factor), extreme ballistic drop beyond 100m, and damage falloff such that shots hit beyond 100m do not kill in one hit. The birdshot should follow the current damage model, deals more damage, travels slower, and contains hundreds fewer pellets than real birdshot, but does a decent enough job of approximating the capabilities of larger birdshot sizes in combat within the confines of game balance. the Rifle barrel should be 9.3mm, firing a projectile doing more than 20.7 damage per shot (that’s how much the Mosin “Infantry” pre-order rifle does), travelling at 720m/s, with appropriate falloff and ballistics. The gun should have 2 fire modes, toggled with the same button as select-fire weapons. In mode one, the right barrel fires first, followed by the left. In mode 2, the rifle barrel would fire first, followed by the left shotgun barrel. This is how the real gun worked.

TOZ-B
The Soviets should have this gun, or something similar, in Moscow, but not in Berlin as they do now, as (unless someone has better information) Red Army units invading germany would have exclusively been armed with Red Army equipment, and they never adopted a shotgun. As for ammo, since it’s a civilian weapon pressed into territorial service, there’s too many options to list. I think it is safe to assume that Russian citizens familiar with the use of shotguns wouldn’t use birdshot against humans if buckshot was available, so I suggest making this weapon’s characteristics identical to my above suggested changes for American buckshot loads.

If anyone’s actually read this far, what’re your thoughts?

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History and Realism

Laughs in Darkflow.

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Yeah, yeah, I know, but just because DFs track record on history or realism isn’t great, doesn’t mean we can’t talk about how to make both better without killing (already questionable) balance within the game.

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nah.

it’s all pointless either way.

for the record, you are not the first one talking about shotungs and most likely never be the last.

but it’s been since they have been heavely nerfed ( a few months after the introduction of Auto5 over normandy ) that things escalated quickly.

i just keep watching shotungs players shooting me at 5 meters and they dealt only 20% ( and sometimes, even lower ) of my health. i honestyl stand still and watch them to get my self killed. as using that weapon you have alot of guts and you deserves it. i honestly " cringe " about it…

with this in mind, as i said, many complains has been made with also reasonable suggestions ( like this one ) and yet nothing has been made about it.

it’s just the way it is.
" if it does not meet the devs visual "
ain’t gonna be a thing what so ever.

can’t do much about it…

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Fair enough, and I know you’re right. I just felt the need to put my two cents out there, and now that I have done, I’m good, ain’t gonna spam this until they change it.

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nah, it’s not about the spam.

as i roughly always tried to do the same in the past.

but unfortunately it’s one of those things that WE have to deal with. ( like all the others things that are still here despite trilions of threads about it… )

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Right!? It is tiring, seeing all the suggestions, whether I agree with them or not, get ignored as far as I can tell. The only thing I’m aware of, that the community asked for and got added, was custom lobbies, and we all know how that’s going.

That’s why I put this in mess room, too, since I wanted to talk to other players about it but wouldn’t expect the devs to change anything, if they even saw it.

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it def dont make sense for a sg to use a pinch of what might as well be ant-shot in a combat weapon

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Nice post. I like the attention to detail.

But I hope that the balance between realistic belief and in-game balance can be reached.

You approach the topic well, and I have some empathy with your suggestions, but in terms of gameplay, shotguns need a niche which they lack now.

In CQC, and by that I mean specifically within buildings and within perhaps 15 feet, shotguns should have the advantage.

I’m not saying that shotguns should rule CQC, but they should have a niche which makes them worth using.

They have a niche now, but it’s very small. I don’t think that slightly increasing that niche would break game balance, but would increase weapon viability and broaden the selection of weapons that are worth using

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Thanks for reading and responding! Some points:

Shotguns fill the same niche as SMGs, more or less, they’re just bad at it. IHMO, the changes I’m suggesting would make them better at filling that role, without being OP, and still being basically useless >40m (except the slugs I want to see on the Drilling), while being more effective than they are now outside of CQC and buildings, so they’d see more play. They should be balanced so that the choice between a shotgun and an SMG is one of preference, not overall effectiveness.

Oh yes, I agree with you, they have a niche which they fill badly.

They should beat SMGs at point blank, like bolt action rifles but with larger spread, but are almost useless at long range.

I think we agree on that - shotguns should dominate very close range combat, but struggle beyond that.

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I don’t know about beat, but I might just disagree with your phrasing and not your point. Shotguns should be more efficient than SMGs in CQC, killing with one shot instead of 2 or 3, but be hampered by low capacity and long reload times.

Sure, I think I agree.

By point blank I mean shortly beyond melee range. Outside of that, SMGs should still be very strong compared to shotguns.

And outside of 6 feet or so, SMGs and shotguns should be equally viable. But shotguns should have the advantages and disadvantages you point out.

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Ah, I see. I thought you meant CQC, which in my mind is anything less than 20 meters or so. I think shotguns should be reliable killers out to 30 or 40 meters, which would make them more playable, instead of the bad smg/bad knife they are right now. SMGs, if fired carefully, should be effective out to around 100m, and they more or less are in the game.

they were, in early days and befor the damage reduction nerf.

you could kill a person 20-30 meters away with a single shot.

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they were OP?

Donno I didnt bother to use them much. But sure as hell were more visible on the batlefield.

Maybe because they had a shot gunner squad around it and wasn’t a assaulter weapon

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I played in the pre-alpha and closed alpha days, and I remember shotguns being pretty good at short distances… I don’t remember there ever being a dedicated shotgun squad, I thought I remembered them being assaulter weapons from the start but I’ve been wrong before. That was back when the TOZ and Drilling fired both barrels with a single pull, yeah?

There were shotguner squads and classes. You can still see them on the enlisted homepage under the squads tab.

The weapon was avaiable only for them, like the vg1.5 was a troopers, radio man etc weapon and not a assaulter one…

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Oh shit, you’re right! I’d forgotten about them, seeing the class symbol jogged the memory.

But yeah, back then shotguns needed work, but they were decent enough to use and not OP. I think the only shotgun I ever saw complaints about was the auto 5, when Normandy was testing, but I don’t think that gun was OP either, just good and people complained hard enough that it never made it to OBT.

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