Yes, they are quite effective with burst fire, on my side I get kills with both fairly easily, but I do like to use MP-38/40s at more than 40m, their recoil control with sightly higher damage do the trick better for me. Specially to get a few head shoots for less ammo consumption. In fact I don’t remember ever running out if ammo while using those smgs. But I run out of ammo all the time with the PPD.
I understand the frustration, but just because you think it’s true doesn’t mean it is or needs to be said. This forum has auto-translate, y’all might be reading poor translations of each others replies. He might have any number of conditions that limit his ability to comprehend written language, I myself am dyslexic. Besides, Ad Hominem fallacies are the only ones expressly forbidden by the community guidelines, try to keep them to the mess room at least.
Get some large ammo pouches.
If you burn through all that ammo on four assaulters, it’s time to die anyway.
I was not aware of that, it might explain why this discussion feels so pointless and repetitive.
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I would say small ammo pouches do work far better on those drum mags than it does on the mp-40.
I don’t have the MP40 to compare, but I’ll do what I can here.
No pouch
Small pouch, one additional reload, 5 total
Large pouch, 5 additional reloads, 9 total
Drums, no pouch, one reload
Small pouch, two reloads
Large pouch, three reloads.
I’m not sure if the ammo pouch bonuses are constant, or as constant as they can be to the closes full magazine. What that all look like for the Mp 40?
It would be nice to see the Maresal to get some Romani army representation in the game
Dude, just check numbers and what equipment Soviets and Germans have. They differ too much.
I did it after looking similar topic about T-50 and beautifull meme:
Any proofes for that version? I don’t see any information or probabilities that it will happen.
T-60 is the best earlygame tank that every german tank has to aim if it wants to kill it. And can’t pen german tanks starting from second Pz. 3 frontally.
T-26 and BT-7 pens every german tank while they can be destroyed too.
T-28 is the best tank against infantry in Moscow campaign. I’m not sure what’s happening to it’s shells but maybe they will get fixed in the end.
T-50. Germand Pz. 4 and Pz. 3J have to aim it for weak spots and start fight with ambush while T-50 can just aim their silhouette and win. If T-50’s pilot aims panzer’s gun - they are dead 100%.
Yes, after that I will believe you that Soviets tanks are worse than german’s. (no)
It’s the only thing they are better and not in a big margin. DP is good soviet LMG even if it’s worse than MG. While LMG overall are worse than most automatic equipment ingame because of big number of debuffes they have.
I’m too lazy to enter discussion with proves and numbers while ppl can’t even check numbers and real situation ingame.
I’m not even speaking about old techs with MG and rest that SK4M3R mentioned.
Do you know what the burden of proof is?
That’s an opinion, not a fact. I can’t argue that they’re different, that would be foolish, or by how much they differ, because that’s quantifiable. “Too Much” is a subjective opinion.
Nothing concrete, but there’s this
It’s wikipedia, but it disagrees with both War Thunder and Enlisted on those armor values, and if they changed it so the thickest armor on the front was 37mm, with the slope it would still be good, but you could still pen it with most german tank guns if you play it right.
You’re right here. It’s only as good as it is, though, because of problems with the damage model. The armor isn’t that good, or shouldn’t be, and it’s only got two crew. If it’s not a damage model issue it’s a knowledge issue, not knowing where to shoot the T60 to delete the crew. I dunno.
This is balanced.
Agreed. Being the best against infantry, I’m pretty ok with it not being great at killing tanks, I’d say this is balanced as is.
Yeah, T50 is a bit of a beast right now because it has the same gun as earlier tanks and way better armor. Like I said, if they reduced that armor to (as best as I can currently tell) historical levels it would be much closer to balanced.
I never said the Soviets were worse than Axis in Moscow as a blanket statement. I pointed out where each side has an advantage and pointed out where adjustments could be made (to the soviets) to bring the campaign closer to balance (it’s already the best balanced campaign tbh). We disagree on the details, but your premise is basically sound.
Then it’s bad faith to demand more from your opponent than you’re willing to do yourself. What may be asserted without evidence, may be dismissed without evidence. If all you ever do is disagree with our points and supporting arguments while shouting your opinion without providing your reasoning, you’re just being loud in the hopes we’ll give up arguing. Good luck.
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›Crying about the shitbox that is the T-50 when the Germans have the 38t, 3J, and both IVs
Lol
Lmao
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T-60 has been a l2p issue from the get go btw
The crying about it only really kicked off when OBT players were let in when no one really cared in CBT when it couldn’t pen the PzII aside from a 1cm line on the turret face
Its “difficult” with the PzII in the same way that the T-28 has to hit a pixel under the 38t’s gun to pen it
i disagree on the t60 being best starter tank
its gun is barely more than a MG and the tank get penned by anthing through its front mantlet-killing the gunnner
pz 2 can at least fight tanks
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You want numbers from me or what?)
Let me be more short:
- Soviets have best SMGs, you can check that by numbers. The closest counterpart to PPSh is german sniper Mkb 42 (H)
While the best german SMGs are worse than lvl 2 soviet SMG. - While germans only have semi-auto or bolt action usual rifles and sniper rifles, Soviets get autorifles. They have a bit worse analogue of FG 42 - AVS. Auto mod is much better than any semi-auto in this game.
- With AT rifles Soviets also have better. Their top rifle both works against tanks and against infantry as 1 shot sniper rifle while germans get bugged rifle with cumulative shells.
- LMG is the only thing that germans are better but even there Soviets have a good LMG. DP is worse than MG by numbers but it’s still an LMG with good ROF, controllable recoil and big mag. Both DP and MG are very close in their gameplay but all past nerfed made LMGs worse in efficiency than any automatic equipment, especially SMGs. The biggest problem is random bullet spread.
- Bombs were nerfed and now more bombs is better because of bigger area you can hit with them. With this Soviets are also better because they have a lot of small bombs and also rockets that weren’t nerfed. The closest counterpart to all sovieat CAS can only be the first Ju 87 B2 that has 5 bombs. And same time even there germans are worse bcs Ju has bad flight stats and very weak weapons that aren’t even able to kill or damage IL-2.
- About tanks I have written before and we came to an agreement about them as I can see.
I can’t see anything that germans can be really good that will give them big advantage in at least one field.
Let’s hope that this will work but I haven’t seen that Gaijin will revert their descisions or replace their stuff. Maybe someone has seen events like that and will tell us dev’s logic with balancing. (I think they don’t have any logic in balancing, lol)
Oh, okay, sorry then. As I said before - I don’t see any real advantages germans have right now. All they had in the past were nerfed to the ground.
But I didn’t demand for numbers and etc.? I’m speaking about things that ppl can check themselves ingame. And it’s also strange to blame me for that while everyone just shouting their opinions and don’t care about proves if you ask them about it. 
And yeah about being loud. If devs were reasonable - would they did all nerfs they do with all that massive whinings that happened before? There were better solutions but they want the easiest way to let whiners be pleasured. Nerf after whine - this is how it works rn. Since reasons aren’t working in this forum and game, being loud is the only option that’s left.
This is good data, and it does show where the PPSh/PPD do have significant advantages over any of the German SMGs. The MKb isn’t an assault rifle, but I agree it helps balance this issue.
This chart doesn’t tell me that the MP40 is worse than the PPD 34/38, it shows how they compare and leaves the reader to form an opinion. I wouldn’t say the Mp40 is worse, I’d say it’s better, but not significantly. PPD box has higher RoF and there for higher DPS, assuming infinite magazines (I can’t tell if the math here calculates DPS including empty seconds spend reloading.) PPD has smaller magazines, and a slower reload. That makes it good in a burst, but the Mp40 better at sustaining the damage. None of this data does anything to establish a common assumption of what “too much better” is, so while the data is interesting and useful for this discussion, the idea that the PPSh is “too much” better than the Mp40 is still just your opinion, and the idea that it isn’t is still mine.
Auto fire from the AVS is only useful at SMG ranges, and in semi auto it’s just a worse SVT. This isn’t an imbalance.
What do you mean cumulative shells? I know we don’t speak the same language, I think this is bad translation, just trying to understand. If the PzB doesn’t work against tanks, that should be addressed, and if it’s bugged or grossly inaccurate, that should be addressed.
I agree with most of this, but I’d like to point out that you’re perfectly willing to accept that Axis has the better LMG, but the Soviet DP is still good so that’s not bad, but fail entirely to realize that the Allies have the best SMG, but the Axis SMGs are still good, which isn’t as close a comparison as the MGs but is still valid.
I haven’t tried to argue this point. Plane combat game-wide is weird and buggy, and soviet planes in both campaigns feel like they perform better than anything else. My IL2 in moscow turns better than my P47, and I’m not sure that makes sense. I think we agree that planes are imbalanced.
Glad we could find a compromise somewhere
I may have understood the intent behind this statement, then.
The devs are human. Mistakes will be made, and unfortunately the loudest sections of the playerbase will be the easiest heard. That’s not going to stop me from being reasonable in the hopes we can find good, compromise solutions that make the game better. Being loudest or silencing my opposition might get me more of what I want, but it wouldn’t make me right.
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Oh no, two similar technologies that are made by different manufacturers from different designs and designers in two whole different countries that are currently at war with each other don’t preform exactly the same? This just won’t do. I’ll make sure to call Comrade Stalin and Herr Hitler right now and have them sit down so their weapons in this video game could have the exact same stats.
anyone wanna stop beating the dead horse of starter tanks and point out that the sidegrades in the OP are blatant upgrades?
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It’s a single magazine, so 30 rounds. With a drum mag you get a 71 round drum, which is more than double the ammo amount obtained.
Right, but it’s still one additional reload, and the number of reloads isn’t always consistent, either. Grabbed some for the PPD(box) in moscow, let’s have a look.
With that, We have:
(Gun-reloads no pouch(ammo)/small pouch(ammo)/large pouch(ammo))
PPD (box) - 5(150)/6(175)/11(300)
PPSh (box) - 4(175)/5(210)/9(350)
PPSh (drum) - 1(142)/2(213)/3(284)
Mp40 - 4(160)/5(192)/(I don’t have the data)
Do you know how much extra the Mp40 gets for large ammo pouch?
As far as the small ammo pouch, you’re basically right, the small ammo pouch give the PPSh more ammo than it gives the MP40, but the MP40 starts with more balanced by requiring more frequent reloads, and if it gets the same bonus the PPSh(box) gets, it ends up with more ammo in the end than the drums get. That, combined with it’s lower rate of fire, mean it can stay in the fight a lot longer, while not being significantly less effective if played correctly and well.
I don’t understand by what logic MP 40 is better with theese numbers while it’s a horrible SMG against PPD.
DPS is one of the most parameters in this game for SMG since they are about cqc.
Higher ROF means you well shoot more bullets than your opponent and it differ in 63,34%. It’s A LOT.
Their damage and reload speed difference is so little that you will not even see it without stats.
Higher DPS means you kill ppl and bots faster so they have less chance to answer you. You clear areas faster and win 1-1 fights.
The only factor why MP 40 has good reload only bcs it has low ROF and it’s not a good thing. PPD becomes even better with 71 mag drum and has great reload efficiency.
Current game mods are mostly about cqc while capturing or protecting point. That’s why it’s better. Difference between AVS and SVT is little: AVS has a bit more recoil which compensates with 15 mag instead of 10. If you lay down or use jamb (I’m not sure what a right word here is) - it has low recoil for auto mode like LMG.
Also. German “counterpart” ZH-29 has worse vertical recoil, a bit better reload time and horizontal recoil. O will put down that ZH’s reload is also bugged.
Top AT rifle is GrB-39 that uses HEAT grenades to penetrate tanks instead of usual rifle like PzB.
You can effectivly kill tanks with it if random decides that you will penetrate it but rn it’s not working good and there are often 0 damage to tanks. Not to say that you can’t use it against infantry.
If we will speak about PzB 39 - it’s much worse bcs it fires single shots while soviet PTRS can shoot multiple.
Yeap but not all SMGs. The only valid “SMG” rn Axis has is Mkb 42 (H).
If we will look at squad’s compositions - sniper squads have less men. It’s 5 against 7 in assault squads that is not a big difference but can influence the fight over capture point.
I understand, it is just my subjective opinion after some tests I did myself and with squadmates. There are no open stats and number I can operate to prove my opinion.
Btw, I still think that P 47 performs better than IL-2 maybe bcs Normandy maps are smaller and infantry is more concetrated in certain areas.
Thanks.
Yeah, I would love to be more reasonable and see more adequate topics about balance but it’s how it works sadly. That’s also why that meme was a perfect hit about situation here.
I already demonstrated, with numbers, how that’s not the case
Sure, but are the DPS numbers in that chart inclusive of reload time? 2.5 or 2.6 seconds without shooting is a lot in CQC, and the MP40 sustains its DPS better than the PPD because the Mp40 has a lower RoF and faster reload. DPS is a good measure, but it doesn’t paint the whole picture.
Ah, that’s not a rifle, it’s an AT grenade launcher, that’s why I got confused. Yeah, it’s not gonna be as effective at killing infantry as the PTRS, and the damage model for AT projectiles is in need of work.
That’s a fair comparison, and that’s why the soviets don’t get a shaped-charge AT weapon and you do. I know it’s not right now, but in theory, the GrB should be better at killing tanks because HEAT, and the PTRS should be better at killing infantry because semi-auto almost-cannon. Asymmetric balance here.
Which axis SMG in moscow is objectively bad? Not comparatively, standing on its own?
I have no problem with stated opinions, and no need for you to prove them, and this one I don’t feel the need to argue.
P47 performs better CAS because it has better rockets and one, bigger bomb. I’ve had better luck dogfighting in the IL2 than in the P47, IL2 feels more nimble and the 20mm cannons seem to be doing more damage to planes than the .50cal. Just my experience and opinion here, your mileage may vary.