New Tanks for Moscow suggestion

[Lear_the_cat]

@Squidocide

That’s an opinion, not a fact. I can’t argue that they’re different, that would be foolish, or by how much they differ, because that’s quantifiable. “Too Much” is a subjective opinion.

You want numbers from me or what?)
Let me be more short:

• Soviets have best SMGs, you can check that by numbers. The closest counterpart to PPSh is german sniper Mkb 42 (H)
  
  While the best german SMGs are worse than lvl 2 soviet SMG.
• While germans only have semi-auto or bolt action usual rifles and sniper rifles, Soviets get autorifles. They have a bit worse analogue of FG 42 - AVS. Auto mod is much better than any semi-auto in this game.
• With AT rifles Soviets also have better. Their top rifle both works against tanks and against infantry as 1 shot sniper rifle while germans get bugged rifle with cumulative shells.
• LMG is the only thing that germans are better but even there Soviets have a good LMG. DP is worse than MG by numbers but it’s still an LMG with good ROF, controllable recoil and big mag. Both DP and MG are very close in their gameplay but all past nerfed made LMGs worse in efficiency than any automatic equipment, especially SMGs. The biggest problem is random bullet spread.
• Bombs were nerfed and now more bombs is better because of bigger area you can hit with them. With this Soviets are also better because they have a lot of small bombs and also rockets that weren’t nerfed. The closest counterpart to all sovieat CAS can only be the first Ju 87 B2 that has 5 bombs. And same time even there germans are worse bcs Ju has bad flight stats and very weak weapons that aren’t even able to kill or damage IL-2.
• About tanks I have written before and we came to an agreement about them as I can see.

I can’t see anything that germans can be really good that will give them big advantage in at least one field.

@Squidocide

Nothing concrete, but there’s this

It’s wikipedia, but it disagrees with both War Thunder and Enlisted on those armor values, and if they changed it so the thickest armor on the front was 37mm, with the slope it would still be good, but you could still pen it with most german tank guns if you play it right.

Let’s hope that this will work but I haven’t seen that Gaijin will revert their descisions or replace their stuff. Maybe someone has seen events like that and will tell us dev’s logic with balancing. (I think they don’t have any logic in balancing, lol)

@Squidocide

I never said the Soviets were worse than Axis in Moscow as a blanket statement. I pointed out where each side has an advantage and pointed out where adjustments could be made (to the soviets) to bring the campaign closer to balance (it’s already the best balanced campaign tbh). We disagree on the details, but your premise is basically sound.

Oh, okay, sorry then. As I said before - I don’t see any real advantages germans have right now. All they had in the past were nerfed to the ground.

@Squidocide

Then it’s bad faith to demand more from your opponent than you’re willing to do yourself. What may be asserted without evidence, may be dismissed without evidence. If all you ever do is disagree with our points and supporting arguments while shouting your opinion without providing your reasoning, you’re just being loud in the hopes we’ll give up arguing. Good luck.

But I didn’t demand for numbers and etc.? I’m speaking about things that ppl can check themselves ingame. And it’s also strange to blame me for that while everyone just shouting their opinions and don’t care about proves if you ask them about it.
And yeah about being loud. If devs were reasonable - would they did all nerfs they do with all that massive whinings that happened before? There were better solutions but they want the easiest way to let whiners be pleasured. Nerf after whine - this is how it works rn. Since reasons aren’t working in this forum and game, being loud is the only option that’s left.

[Squidocide]

@1035772

Soviets have best SMGs, you can check that by numbers. The closest counterpart to PPSh is german sniper Mkb 42 (H)

This is good data, and it does show where the PPSh/PPD do have significant advantages over any of the German SMGs. The MKb isn’t an assault rifle, but I agree it helps balance this issue.

@1035772

While the best german SMGs are worse than lvl 2 soviet SMG.

This chart doesn’t tell me that the MP40 is worse than the PPD 34/38, it shows how they compare and leaves the reader to form an opinion. I wouldn’t say the Mp40 is worse, I’d say it’s better, but not significantly. PPD box has higher RoF and there for higher DPS, assuming infinite magazines (I can’t tell if the math here calculates DPS including empty seconds spend reloading.) PPD has smaller magazines, and a slower reload. That makes it good in a burst, but the Mp40 better at sustaining the damage. None of this data does anything to establish a common assumption of what “too much better” is, so while the data is interesting and useful for this discussion, the idea that the PPSh is “too much” better than the Mp40 is still just your opinion, and the idea that it isn’t is still mine.

@1035772

While germans only have semi-auto or bolt action usual rifles and sniper rifles, Soviets get autorifles. They have a bit worse analogue of FG 42 - AVS. Auto mod is much better than any semi-auto in this game.

Auto fire from the AVS is only useful at SMG ranges, and in semi auto it’s just a worse SVT. This isn’t an imbalance.

@1035772

With AT rifles Soviets also have better. Their top rifle both works against tanks and against infantry as 1 shot sniper rifle while germans get bugged rifle with cumulative shells.

What do you mean cumulative shells? I know we don’t speak the same language, I think this is bad translation, just trying to understand. If the PzB doesn’t work against tanks, that should be addressed, and if it’s bugged or grossly inaccurate, that should be addressed.

@1035772

LMG is the only thing that germans are better but even there Soviets have a good LMG. DP is worse than MG by numbers but it’s still an LMG with good ROF, controllable recoil and big mag. Both DP and MG are very close in their gameplay but all past nerfed made LMGs worse in efficiency than any automatic equipment, especially SMGs. The biggest problem is random bullet spread.

I agree with most of this, but I’d like to point out that you’re perfectly willing to accept that Axis has the better LMG, but the Soviet DP is still good so that’s not bad, but fail entirely to realize that the Allies have the best SMG, but the Axis SMGs are still good, which isn’t as close a comparison as the MGs but is still valid.

@1035772

Bombs were nerfed and now more bombs is better because of bigger area you can hit with them. With this Soviets are also better because they have a lot of small bombs and also rockets that weren’t nerfed. The closest counterpart to all sovieat CAS can only be the first Ju 87 B2 that has 5 bombs. And same time even there germans are worse bcs Ju has bad flight stats and very weak weapons that aren’t even able to kill or damage IL-2.

I haven’t tried to argue this point. Plane combat game-wide is weird and buggy, and soviet planes in both campaigns feel like they perform better than anything else. My IL2 in moscow turns better than my P47, and I’m not sure that makes sense. I think we agree that planes are imbalanced.

@1035772

About tanks I have written before and we came to an agreement about them as I can see.

Glad we could find a compromise somewhere

@1035772

But I didn’t demand for numbers and etc.?

@1035772

I don’t like mindless whining and prefer numbers btw.

I may have understood the intent behind this statement, then.

@1035772

There were better solutions but they want the easiest way to let whiners be pleasured. Nerf after whine - this is how it works rn.

The devs are human. Mistakes will be made, and unfortunately the loudest sections of the playerbase will be the easiest heard. That’s not going to stop me from being reasonable in the hopes we can find good, compromise solutions that make the game better. Being loudest or silencing my opposition might get me more of what I want, but it wouldn’t make me right.

[Barendd1974]

Oh no, two similar technologies that are made by different manufacturers from different designs and designers in two whole different countries that are currently at war with each other don’t preform exactly the same? This just won’t do. I’ll make sure to call Comrade Stalin and Herr Hitler right now and have them sit down so their weapons in this video game could have the exact same stats.

[Attic_Annie]

anyone wanna stop beating the dead horse of starter tanks and point out that the sidegrades in the OP are blatant upgrades?

[SK4M3R]

@Squidocide

I’m not sure if the ammo pouch bonuses are constant, or as constant as they can be to the closes full magazine. What that all look like for the Mp 40?

It’s a single magazine, so 30 rounds. With a drum mag you get a 71 round drum, which is more than double the ammo amount obtained.

[Squidocide]

@73626587

It’s a single magazine, so 30 rounds. With a drum mag you get a 71 round drum, which is more than double the ammo amount obtained.

Right, but it’s still one additional reload, and the number of reloads isn’t always consistent, either. Grabbed some for the PPD(box) in moscow, let’s have a look.

With that, We have:
(Gun-reloads no pouch(ammo)/small pouch(ammo)/large pouch(ammo))
PPD (box) - 5(150)/6(175)/11(300)
PPSh (box) - 4(175)/5(210)/9(350)
PPSh (drum) - 1(142)/2(213)/3(284)
Mp40 - 4(160)/5(192)/(I don’t have the data)

Do you know how much extra the Mp40 gets for large ammo pouch?

As far as the small ammo pouch, you’re basically right, the small ammo pouch give the PPSh more ammo than it gives the MP40, but the MP40 starts with more balanced by requiring more frequent reloads, and if it gets the same bonus the PPSh(box) gets, it ends up with more ammo in the end than the drums get. That, combined with it’s lower rate of fire, mean it can stay in the fight a lot longer, while not being significantly less effective if played correctly and well.

[Lear_the_cat]

@Squidocide

I wouldn’t say the Mp40 is worse, I’d say it’s better, but not significantly.

I don’t understand by what logic MP 40 is better with theese numbers while it’s a horrible SMG against PPD.
DPS is one of the most parameters in this game for SMG since they are about cqc.
Higher ROF means you well shoot more bullets than your opponent and it differ in 63,34%. It’s A LOT.
Their damage and reload speed difference is so little that you will not even see it without stats.
Higher DPS means you kill ppl and bots faster so they have less chance to answer you. You clear areas faster and win 1-1 fights.
The only factor why MP 40 has good reload only bcs it has low ROF and it’s not a good thing. PPD becomes even better with 71 mag drum and has great reload efficiency.

@Squidocide

Auto fire from the AVS is only useful at SMG ranges, and in semi auto it’s just a worse SVT. This isn’t an imbalance.

Current game mods are mostly about cqc while capturing or protecting point. That’s why it’s better. Difference between AVS and SVT is little: AVS has a bit more recoil which compensates with 15 mag instead of 10. If you lay down or use jamb (I’m not sure what a right word here is) - it has low recoil for auto mode like LMG.
Also. German “counterpart” ZH-29 has worse vertical recoil, a bit better reload time and horizontal recoil. O will put down that ZH’s reload is also bugged.

@Squidocide

What do you mean cumulative shells? I know we don’t speak the same language, I think this is bad translation, just trying to understand. If the PzB doesn’t work against tanks, that should be addressed, and if it’s bugged or grossly inaccurate, that should be addressed.

Top AT rifle is GrB-39 that uses HEAT grenades to penetrate tanks instead of usual rifle like PzB.
You can effectivly kill tanks with it if random decides that you will penetrate it but rn it’s not working good and there are often 0 damage to tanks. Not to say that you can’t use it against infantry.
If we will speak about PzB 39 - it’s much worse bcs it fires single shots while soviet PTRS can shoot multiple.

@Squidocide

I agree with most of this, but I’d like to point out that you’re perfectly willing to accept that Axis has the better LMG, but the Soviet DP is still good so that’s not bad, but fail entirely to realize that the Allies have the best SMG, but the Axis SMGs are still good, which isn’t as close a comparison as the MGs but is still valid.

Yeap but not all SMGs. The only valid “SMG” rn Axis has is Mkb 42 (H).
If we will look at squad’s compositions - sniper squads have less men. It’s 5 against 7 in assault squads that is not a big difference but can influence the fight over capture point.

@Squidocide

I haven’t tried to argue this point. Plane combat game-wide is weird and buggy, and soviet planes in both campaigns feel like they perform better than anything else. My IL2 in moscow turns better than my P47, and I’m not sure that makes sense. I think we agree that planes are imbalanced.

I understand, it is just my subjective opinion after some tests I did myself and with squadmates. There are no open stats and number I can operate to prove my opinion.
Btw, I still think that P 47 performs better than IL-2 maybe bcs Normandy maps are smaller and infantry is more concetrated in certain areas.

@Squidocide

I may have understood the intent behind this statement, then.

Thanks.

@Squidocide

The devs are human. Mistakes will be made, and unfortunately the loudest sections of the playerbase will be the easiest heard. That’s not going to stop me from being reasonable in the hopes we can find good, compromise solutions that make the game better. Being loudest or silencing my opposition might get me more of what I want, but it wouldn’t make me right.

Yeah, I would love to be more reasonable and see more adequate topics about balance but it’s how it works sadly. That’s also why that meme was a perfect hit about situation here.

[Squidocide]

@1035772

I don’t understand by what logic MP 40 is better with theese numbers while it’s a horrible SMG against PPD.

I already demonstrated, with numbers, how that’s not the case

@1035772

DPS is one of the most parameters in this game for SMG since they are about cqc.

Sure, but are the DPS numbers in that chart inclusive of reload time? 2.5 or 2.6 seconds without shooting is a lot in CQC, and the MP40 sustains its DPS better than the PPD because the Mp40 has a lower RoF and faster reload. DPS is a good measure, but it doesn’t paint the whole picture.

@1035772

Top AT rifle is GrB-39 that uses HEAT grenades to penetrate tanks instead of usual rifle like PzB.
You can effectivly kill tanks with it if random decides that you will penetrate it but rn it’s not working good and there are often 0 damage to tanks. Not to say that you can’t use it against infantry.

Ah, that’s not a rifle, it’s an AT grenade launcher, that’s why I got confused. Yeah, it’s not gonna be as effective at killing infantry as the PTRS, and the damage model for AT projectiles is in need of work.

@1035772

If we will speak about PzB 39 - it’s much worse bcs it fires single shots while soviet PTRS can shoot multiple.

That’s a fair comparison, and that’s why the soviets don’t get a shaped-charge AT weapon and you do. I know it’s not right now, but in theory, the GrB should be better at killing tanks because HEAT, and the PTRS should be better at killing infantry because semi-auto almost-cannon. Asymmetric balance here.

@1035772

Yeap but not all SMGs. The only valid “SMG” rn Axis has is Mkb 42 (H).

Which axis SMG in moscow is objectively bad? Not comparatively, standing on its own?

@1035772

I understand, it is just my subjective opinion after some tests I did myself and with squadmates. There are no open stats and number I can operate to prove my opinion.

I have no problem with stated opinions, and no need for you to prove them, and this one I don’t feel the need to argue.

@1035772

Btw, I still think that P 47 performs better than IL-2 maybe bcs Normandy maps are smaller and infantry is more concetrated in certain areas.

P47 performs better CAS because it has better rockets and one, bigger bomb. I’ve had better luck dogfighting in the IL2 than in the P47, IL2 feels more nimble and the 20mm cannons seem to be doing more damage to planes than the .50cal. Just my experience and opinion here, your mileage may vary.

[Winter_Storm]

@Squidocide

Which axis SMG in moscow is objectively bad? Not comparatively, standing on its own

Mp28 is one I can list

[Squidocide]

@Rickyd123

Mp28 is one I can list

In what way? From what I can see, it has the disadvantage of a small magazine for an SMG, carries six reloads before ammo pouches, doesn’t recoil badly, and has a low RoF which helps manage it’s low capacity and sustain its DPS, even if the DPS is low.

[Winter_Storm]

Just the 20 mag and the low rof, the only saving grace of the mp28 is that it’s easily to control

[Squidocide]

So, just because it has a small capacity and low RoF, it sucks? I have to disagree. It needs to be used differently to have success, but it doesn’t suck.

[TUSUPOLISI69]

It isnt exactly a effective weapon either regardless how you use it especiatly if its compared to its counterparts.

[Winter_Storm]

oh yeah maybe some might consider it good, like how i consider the m1 carbine good, but it really doesn’t fit my playstyle all too well

[Squidocide]

@TUSUPOLISI69

It isnt exactly a effective weapon either regardless how you use it especiatly if its compared to its counterparts.

It’s not innefective though, and it’s the starter SMG.

@Rickyd123

oh yeah maybe some might consider it good, like how i consider the m1 carbine good, but it really doesn’t fit my playstyle all too well

I didn’t mean to imply that I think it’s good, necessarily, just that it doesn’t objectively suck. I don’t know that it would fit how I play either. Like you said, different playstyles. I don’t like the M1 Carbine because I prefer harder hitting, more accurate fire at greater ranges (it’s almost like the USMC taught me how to shoot XD), but I don’t think the carbine sucks.

[TUSUPOLISI69]

@Squidocide

It’s not innefective though

If the bar is set at “Can it kill” then yeah it aint.
If you compare to it o anything else then yes it cant do anything the other guns cant do better so in comparison it its rather ineffective.

[Squidocide]

@TUSUPOLISI69

If you compare to it o anything else then yes it cant do anything the other guns cant do better so in comparison it its rather ineffective.

That’s fair, but it also takes no work to get the MP28, so it shouldn’t be excellent. The PPD (box) has different limitations, but it’s comparatively ineffective stacked against the PPD (drum) or PPSh. shrug.

[TUSUPOLISI69]

@Squidocide

That’s fair, but it also takes no work to get the MP28, so it shouldn’t be excellent.

Agree.

@Squidocide

The PPD (box) has different limitations

All guns have theyr limitations, regardless cant figure a single reason to choose mp28 over PPD if given chance of choosing.

[Squidocide]

@TUSUPOLISI69

All guns have theyr limitations, regardless cant figure a single reason to choose mp28 over PPD if given chance of choosing.

I’d make the same choice, others might not. PPD(box) is great, until you have to reload. If you’re good, the PPD is probably the better weapon, but it’s high RoF limits its sustained DPS and reduces it’s controllability, requiring care to use well. MP28 is more controllable with it’s low RoF, making it easier to make consistent hits, particularly as the range increases. I might take the MP28 over PPD(box) on a more open map, saving PPD for maps where CQC is more dominant. Just my $.02, YMMV.

[Lear_the_cat]

@Squidocide

Sure, but are the DPS numbers in that chart inclusive of reload time? 2.5 or 2.6 seconds without shooting is a lot in CQC, and the MP40 sustains its DPS better than the PPD because the Mp40 has a lower RoF and faster reload. DPS is a good measure, but it doesn’t paint the whole picture.

Let us be clear. We are talking about using weapons in cqc or midrange? Because they show themselves diefferently and I think PPD will still be better.
DPS is about damage, not reload time. I added reload efficiecy parameter for that. If we will speak about 71 drum PPD, it has almost the same reload efficiency while having better damage dealing stats:

@Squidocide

the GrB should be better at killing tanks because HEAT, and the PTRS should be better at killing infantry because semi-auto almost-cannon. Asymmetric balance here.

Yes but I didn’t even see any information if they are going to fix that or rebalance weapons with new additions or rebuilding old ones.
So I show them how it’s for now.

@Squidocide

Which axis SMG in moscow is objectively bad? Not comparatively, standing on its own?

MP 28. Low rof, small 20 round mag and big recoil. MP 38 and MP 40 are close to that since they have low rof and similar recoil but a bit better than MP 28’s. The only thing that saves them being totally bad is 32 round mags.
Btw, I have done few field tests with PPD 34/38 and MP 40 about recoil and their accuracy.

41 hits of 71, accuracy around 57.75%, hor. recoil is not big as we can see.
Let’s count time it took without aiming:

• Firing bullets takes 8.69 secs,
• 2 reloads are 5 secs,

In total we get 13.69 sec.

Next PPD 38/34:

45 hits of 71, accuracy around 63.38%, hor. recoil is pretty big.
About time:

• Firing bullets takes 5.33 secs,
• 1 reload are 3.6 secs,

I’m taking here reload for a moment a gun is capable firing again since MP 40 still have ammo in mag after firing 71 bullets.
In total we get 8.96 sec.
8.96 sec of PPD is still much better than 13.96 sec of MP 40 by 55,80% while having a bit better accurancy and a worse horizontal recoil. Accurancy defference is 5.63%.

Let’s go for midrange distance and accurancy test for both weapons.

52 hits of 71, accuracy around 73,24%, hor. recoil is bretty big.
About time:

• Firing bullets takes 8.69 secs,
• 2 reloads are 5 secs,

In total we get 13.69 sec.

48 hits of 71, accuracy around 67.61%, hor. recoil is bretty big.
About time:

• Firing bullets takes 5.33 secs,
• 1 reload are 3.6 secs,

In total we get 8.96 sec.
8.96 sec of PPD is still much better than 13.96 sec of MP 40 by 55,80% while having a worse accurancy and a almost same horizontal recoil. Accurancy defference is 5.63%. (lol)

Accurancy by hitmarks isn’t very big bertween them especially on longer distances but as we can see, PPD hits target faster by a big margin than MP 40. To be fair let’s count damage for cqc combat since it’s more important and more common situation and MP 40 has more expressed difference.
MP40:
5.7*(Body 24 * 100% + Neck 7 * 200% + Head 10 * 180%) = 319.2 dmg
PPD 34/38^
5.5*(Body 38 * 100% + Neck 4 * 200% + Head 3 * 180%) = 282.7 dmg
Difference in 11.43%.
Let’s count effective dps by time was wasted to fire bullets and reload time:
MP 40 - 23.32 dmg/sec, PPD 34/38 - 31.55 dmg/sec.
Difference in 26.09%.

I think difference in weapon’s effectiveness is clear. PPD more effectively deals damage while their difference in accurancy is pretty small.