đŸ›« Myrm1dons Airfields and Air balance: Year 2

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What is this about?

This is not just about aircraft. This is about Improving the Plane experience, Game Health and All areas of the game CAS interact with. I think with the addition of Jets, players are starting to realise more now more than ever, Something needs to change!

To achieve this, the following areas need attention

- Part 1: Airfields (complete with AI AA protection)
- Part 2: Render Distance (ground and air)
- Part 3: Spotting and lead indicators
- Part 4: Finishing gunners
- Part 5: Loadout customization

I believe they are all parts of the puzzle that need to work together but I will seperate so they can be approached individually for feedback. The Topic will be Part 1: Airfields.

  • Part 2 will be first reply
  • Part 3 second reply. So on and so Forth


Who is this Change for?

This is about improving the experience of Everyone! Infantry, Tankers, and Pilots.

Infantry Players
  • Are you sick of how quickly planes can cycle MASSIVE payloads with ever increasing frequency as BR and Speed of Aircraft Increases?
  • Are you sick of no repreive from the endless cycling of planes? One falls, another immediently takes its place with no down time
  • Are you sick of the frequent state of shell shock (Amplified by CAS)?
Vehicle Players
  • Are you sick of being immediently and swiftly revenge bombed?
  • Are you sick of the increasing frequency bigger bombs appear as BR increases?
Aircraft Players

Pilots

  • are you sick of losing your plane to a mere flesh wound (oil leak)?
  • are you sick of not being able to do anything about repairing?
  • are you sick of aircraft that rely on speed over maneueverability and not being able to use it well?
  • are you sick of your aerial victories being met with a fresh respawn instantly bearing down on you before you can recover?
  • are you sick of fighter gameplay having little place, interception being quite hard?
  • Have you perhaps been spawn camped at your airspawn?

If you answered yes to any of those questions, Airfield benefit you!


:flight_departure:Why Airfields?

Airfields are a “Delay Mechanic”. So It doesnt matter if you are for;

  • Airfields
  • Spawn lockout timers
  • Increasing airspawn distance
  • Increasing rearm distance
  • All of the above

They are all about the same thing. “Delaying the Frequency of which CAS aircraft can be rotated above the battlefield”


Why do we need a Delay mechanic?

As BR increase, planes get faster and payloads get bigger, but the map and objective size stay the same.

A year after I initially made this suggestion, I believe players have had a full taste of what Im talking about, with the addition of Jets. You knock one down, another of the exact same instantly appears before you can savour victory.


Currently on Live, New aircraft spawn in with speed and altitude (energy). This is what allows them to rotate so effectively and so hard to intercept. This ramps up with BR as payloads and speeds increase.

This is why shooting down aircraft feels like it has no meaningful impact on the game. You swat one, another appears, sometimes even faster than if you hadnt shot one down in the first place.

Anyone who plays Pacific Naval aircraft knows what Energy vs No Energy looks like. Especially Japanese Pilots



Why Airfields over the other options?


Why Not use Spawn Lockout timers?

Its BORING
it robs players of time. You could be sitting in the loadout screen waiting a minute or more to get your hands on a vehicle only for someone else who was doing the same thing to get the slot
It wasted you and your teams time when you could have spawned in.


Why Not increase Airspawn Distance?

This increases the distance but it doesnt alter speed or altitude. It also benefits faster aircraft too much as they spawn in at speed in a high energy state (which can be converted to more speed)


Why Not increase Rearm distance?

By itself, this may decrease the frequency of bombing, but it doesnt effect spawning in a new aircraft. Meaning you arent rewarded for shooting one down, a new one will be back faster than it would take to rearm.

By itself, It benefits faster aircraft and becomes prefarable to spawn in a new aircraft rather than rearm.


Why Not just add Ground Level Airspawn?

This is quite a good alternative it removes altitude from the equation. This may be enough, But it still benefits fast planes like jets far more than other aircraft as it negates their weakness (acceleration)


Why Airfields?

Airfields Remove both Speed and Altitude from the plane, requiring the player to build it up first.

Everything comes into play. Weight, Climb rate, speed, acceleration. It also provides these unqiue advantages.

  • A safe zone to spawn
  • A place to repair
  • A place to retire your aircraft/squad without having to suicide (use tickets)
  • Having to start on the ground, actually provides a price to be paid for being shot down.

Video Mockup: 4.5km Airfield on slow aircraft = 40 second delay, low Energy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ib7L5yLoUjg


A combination of any of these can achieve the delay we are looking for, but Airfields provide the most extra benefits. Infantry and Tankers will benefit from this also.

What this means is that being shot down has a meaningful impact. It also makes you easier to intercept and aerial engagements actually mean something.



Airfields do not limit our choices. Our goal is to Remove Energy and require Pilots to manage the aquisition of it.

We can do this by:

  • Ground spawn on the airfield (No speed no Altitude)
  • Ground level air spawn (No altitude). This change could be made alone, but airfields have the other benefits we are looking for
  • Different spawns for different Aircraft types (e.g Fighters ground spawn, Attackers Ground level airspawn, Jet Aircraft their own seperate spawn)

Spawning on the ground doesnt mean mechanics to accelerate you faster when taking off cant be implemented. the same way catapulting off a carrier deck works in Warthunder. It is still mostly an arcade game after all.


Pilots will have to choose:

  • Take time to build altitude and energy
  • Rush to target with very little of either

This is similar to how tankers and Infantry have to choose. take the shortest route, or spend time getting into position.

Other Benefits:

  • Planes without Speed or Altitude are far easier to intercept
  • Fighters become alot more important for preventing CAS
  • Downing aircraft is rewarding as it takes time for them to come back
  • All aircraft characteristings come into play. speed, acceleration, climbrate, weight.

For this suggestion I will NOT be promoting changing the way rearming occurs. it will stay the same.


To be Clear: For this suggestion you will not have to land to “Rearm”. Rearming will still be done in the air via the current arcade method. This is only about starting on the ground OR at ground level to delay the Plane



Fortunately all Maps already have plenty of space outside of gameplay areas. It doesnt need to fancy
 Just a strip of dirt to land with repair and AI AA. Modders have been adding this in their maps for quite some time now.

Example of Empty Space

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Airfields dont specifically need to be on the teams side either, as long as they are opposite to the enemy teams airfield. For example on DDay Normandy you obviously cant have an Airfield in the ocean, but you can on either side of the active battelfield on the coast.

All the mechanics necessary are already in the game aswell and have been put to use in mods.

  • Ground Spawn (spawn on carrier)
  • Repair on land/crash land (Same as carrier. instant turnaround)
  • AI AA guns (same as carrer)

Maps with Airfield examples: (thanks @Baklaz360pl-live for the pics)

Airfield Normandy

Fortress Tunisia

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Moscow Winter Maps

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Rzhev

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Gavutu

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Munda Trail

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Guadalcanal

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Conclusion:

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This should give you a pretty good idea of what to expect. But as Enlsited is a fast paced game, Other changes will also be required to make the slowing down of CAS not detrimental to the overall flow of the game.

32 Likes


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Theres no two ways about this
Render Distance for Pilots is Terrible!


This is one of the biggest bottlenecks, robbing many fighters of a viable role, and further enforces the need for large ordnance. We cant see anything, But with big boom we might get lucky!


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Without the exact data, Experience tells me:

  • Tanks, Planes and APCs render between 2-2.5 Kms away
  • Infantry and engineer emplacements render in anywhere from 200-300 meters away.

To Top it off, the difference between seeing and not seeing is influenced by FOV and zoom level. I have been looking at a plane that appears and disappears (actually de-renders) as I zoom in and out.


Players always pick the biggest bang when it comes to ordnance, not just because its Effective and Cool
 but because you cant see shit to make use of much else.

Cant See Shit GIFs | Tenor


Making other Planes Viable:

With Increased render distance, It opens up the viability of a great many more plane options. Planes with great primary armament but medocre/no bombs will start to have a place. Not only can they swat CAS out of the sky, but they can actually contribute through strafing runs.

With Pure Fighters being given more opportunity, the numbers of their natural prey (Attackers) may become leaner.

As a long time Warthunder Ground RB player, I spend the majority of my time bullying CAS players and soft targets. Fighters should be invaluable.

Warthunder and Enlsited use the Dagor Engine. In Warthunder stuff renders in at least 6km away. Its time for Enlisted to catch up.


Enhanced Distant Sillhouettes:

Warthunder also uses “Enhanced Sillhouettes” at great distance to allow players to identify incoming Aircraft over great distances. It enhances the Black dot/sillouette artificially at great ranges, Making the Black dot much larger so you can identify whats coming.

This would be a great addition to Enlisted, as we are already restricted to combat view, having more clarity of vision is required.


Contrails/Vortices/Vapour Trails:

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Warthunder also makes use of these to help with visability. Funnily Enough Enlisted does have this (sort of). But only for naval aircraft that launch from a Carrier. You can see them coming a long way away


Conclusion:

With proper rendering , Airfields/ground level airspawn (and some ammo belt selection), It is my personal belief we can resurrect the pure fighter class to be more than just a Defacto Attacker slot . Bombs and rockets are not the only way!

18 Likes


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Section 1: Lead Indicators


Air Combat Lead Indicator

For Air combat, the Lead indicator appears FAR too far away.

Unless my information is wrong, the base distance for lead indicator is 1000 meters (this is already ridiculous as Warthunder Arcade doesnt even extend past 790 meters.

With Full perks you end up with 1500 meters which is crazy.

This makes all planes that rely on Speed over manueverability or Energy fighting have the worst time trying to play to their strengths. Every time they manuever to avoid long range spray fire, they bleed speed. This traps them because they cant extend far enough to out range the lead indicator.

This Kills off the majority of all air combat before it realistically should even begin, And makes turn time King more often than not.

I suggest Lowering fully perked lead indicator range by at least 50-75%.

This has the following benefits:

  • Allows Dogfighting a better chance to occur (Dog fighting is fun)
  • Faster planes have a bigger window to use their speed/energy style
  • Faster planes (or Jets) have a smaller target assistance window before they over shoot
  • Gunners have a chance to be used while tailing planes have to close the distance

500-750m Fully perked lead indicator is more than enough. (perhaps even still too much)


AA gun Lead indicator

AA guns are already OP by design. They have First strike capability and anyone that knows what they are doing will make short work of anything with No risk to themselves. (its frustrating to be on the receiving end, and I sympathize with anyone I have done it too)

AA guns are often built in the grayzone where no one has Line of sight. This means they dont render in for Pilots until under 300 meters (this is stupid). this means that unless you give yourself away with unecessary tracer fire
its completely one sided, there is no “Counter play”


Example of How easy AA is to use

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLfo3JdE_80


Currently on Live They dont feel like the achieve much because another Plane spawns in straight away. This has left people with the false impression they are not strong enough.


Since we are making taking down planes rewarding with airfields, It will be necessary to make AA require more ability to use as to not completely kill the Air experience.

There are Two options that I see as viable:


Option 1: Add better AA guns, Remove lead indicator:

One option is to Remove the lead indicator. As compensation, better AA with more Barrels, More Ammo and Faster reload should be added. Bringing back AA guns like the Quad barrels, dual 37s, 40mm etc


Option 2: Add better AA guns, Reverse Lead Indicator:

AAs operate differently. They are most lethal if you hold fire until the last moment when a target is close enough to be commited so they cant alter course.

So the opposite will need to be done. The lead indicator will still show at 1000-1500 Meters (Im not really sure what it is on AA guns) allowing you to get your bead on an approaching Aircraft. But as they approach the point of no return, you will actually have to learn to aim to hit your target.


Section 2: Spotting

This is a simple one. 3D spotting shouldnt mark the exact location of the vehicle. Its used to show the roundabouts location. The old way is better for the game. Having the exact location marked essentally is wall hack.

The exact location will still be marked on the minimap. This is how the Warthunder spotting system works

Straight forward.

9 Likes


Needs no explanation!

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Click Here to expand!

I have suggested this before, But I would like to go into detail.


We all Know Warthunder has a Custom loadout option for aircraft and tanks.

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It is a much desired feature here in Enlisted but I would like to present an idea suited to Enlsited


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Currently in Warthunder, vehicles have a set BR and can strap anything available to their vehicle/aircraft and maintain that BR (no matter how big)


In Enlisted I suggest each Vehicle/Plane have a “Base Empty BR rating (no ordnance)” and then treating Individual Ordnance Packages as a “weapon” with a BR rating applied. Much like infantry have to equip weapons and equipment, Planes will have to equip an Ordnance Package, and Tanks will have to equip Ammunition

The “Stronger” the Ordnance Package/Ammunition
 the higher the Battle Rating.

This has the advantage of not tying Vehilce Power, to Ordnance Power:

Here are a few current examples

  • The Beaughfighter is clearly NOT a BR 4 Aircraft
But the 8x RP-3 rockets ARE a BR 4 loadout
  • The Ju-87 D-3 is NOT a BR 3 Aircraft
but the 3x250kg bombs ARE a BR 3 Loadout.
  • The B5N2 is NOT a BR 2 Airfcaft
But the 2x250kg bombs ARE possibly a BR 2 Loadout

There are mutliple ways this can be done. One is to just straight port over the way warthunder does it, But I fear this would require limiting payload options so severely there is no real choice
 or put mediocre Vehicles/planes far too high in BR because of their payload.


Everyone is familiar with equipping their Infantry and that the primary weapon increases BR

I suggest Equipping Vehicles in the same way Via Ordnance Packages/Ammunition with a BR assigned :slight_smile:


Lets take the P-51D for example:

When you research in the TT you will purchase your first 1 :star: P-51D

Lets say a P-51D without ordance is a BR 3 plane


DO NOT get caught up on the Payloads specifically if you dont like them. Thats NOT what it is about. They are for Example purposes ONLY!!! to show you what potentially is available, and why Dynamic BRS is a good thing. The question is do you support the base idea of Dynamic Custom Loadouts


Keep in mind the more you carry, The more it impacts plane performance.


At 1 ⭐ you will unlock BR 3 Loadouts to Equip

1: 4x HVAR, 2x Mk 78 Incindiary Bomb
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2: 4x HVAR, 2x 100lb bomb
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3: 6X M8 Rockets, 2 x 250lb bomb
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4: 6X M8 rockets, 2 xMk 78 Incindiary Bomb
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5: 2 x 500LB Bombs
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6: ALL Ammunition Belts
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At 2 ⭐⭐you will unlock BR 4 Loadouts to Equip

1: 6x HVAR, 2x 250lb bomb
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2: 6x HVAR 2x Mk 78 Incidniary Bombs
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3: 6x M8 Rockets, 2x 500lb Bombs
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At 3 ⭐⭐⭐ you will unlock BR 5 Loadouts to Equip.

1: 8x HVAR, 2x 500lb bomb
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2: 6x M8 Rockets, 2x1000lb bomb
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For Tanks I suggest something Similar

Lets take the Semovente (75/32 41) For example:

When you research in the TT you will purchase your first 1 :star: Semovente

Lets say a Semovente with stock round is BR 1


At 1 ⭐ you will unlock for BR 1

1: APCBC Round
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2: Smoke Round
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At 2 ⭐⭐ you will unlock for BR 2

1: HE Round
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At 3 ⭐⭐⭐ you will unlock for BR 2

1: HEAT
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They Beauty of doing it Dynamically is you dont have to restrict certian payloads/Vehicles that dont fit at certain BRS.

14 Likes

I really hope this will not become the norm. This is not the proper way how to prove the point.

:neutral_face:would hardly bother with the wall of text and videos then would I? (that took ages I might add)

4 Likes

Why not just use pacific aicraft carriers?
Otherwise, upvoted

1 Like

I got no problem with that. Some might not like the distinction of planes that can and cannot (which is why I commented on putting it elsewhere)
 but at the end of the day its already arcade
it achieves the desired result. either way works

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because jets cannot take off from there.

they need at least an airfield long as the rezhev one ( or even double that ).

5 Likes

Good catch
i forgot thats part of the weakness jets require :saluting_face:

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Glad my pics became actually useful for someone lol.
I just wanted to add that before such thing gets added, the runways should be definitely increased in length, it’s awfully hard to land on the Pacific airfields in particular.

5 Likes

Sorry i should credit you. I will update

2 Likes

I’m on the fence with this one.
I’m afraid of air supremacy this may cause. But I guess we need to try it to draw any conclusions.

1 Like

Air replenishment point shouldn’t be removed with the introduction of airfields.

It should just be repositioned at a greater distance from the battlefield for jets (to balance their higher speed compared to props).

Overall jets should have slightly different rules in spawn, refill and so on.

You are acting like distance between spawn and battlefield can’t be increased as well.

That’s not true. All of it can be altered. From plane spawning in top speed to spawning in miniminal flying speed.
I don’t think I need to comment about altitude.

As I have said, jets should have different rules in both spawning and air refill point.


Overall I am not against addition of airfields, quite the opposite.

But it shouldn’t replace role of air refill points. Because something like that would extremely widen the gap between experienced and casual players, making aircraft gameplay exclusionary only to more hardercore players in totally casual focused game.
That’s clearly wrong.

1 Like

Of all i figured this would have the most resistance. I seperated them all specifically for this one

5 Likes

I specifically said they wouldnt. Rearm doesnt change

Here


I wont argue your other points because while you arent wrong, i worded it so i wasnt either

“By itself”, “increase distance”
dont have the extra benefits of Airfileds

Im selling airfields. Feel free to sell something else

3 Likes

Sorry, I somewhat missed that. I’m using a dark mod and the big blue text blends in more than anything.


I think the biggest problem is that the Jets can refill much faster than the props.

Same for case for this.

Until introduction of jets, this has never been significant issue.

Then don’t present it as correction of main problems that aircraft gameplay currently has. Because that’s simply not the case.

Airfields as you are trying to sell them won’t fix main issues with the current state of aircrafts in the game.

Its alot to read and take in, so I wont blame you. But its covered in the op

haha well we don’t tend to use much of the runway length anyway (when landing). Much faster to belly land, repair and take off again. In both Warthunder and Enlisted (unless your plane isn’t naval in Enlisted) :stuck_out_tongue:

2 Likes