Italian Research Tree 🇮🇹

[Heakler_CZ]

@Dregomz

Then you would need to grind from zero and pay again for the slots which almost nobody would do and that nation will be played by no one. It’s not sustainable unless they would share slot count of the Axis while keeping their army separate.

I don’t mind grinding from scratch; on the contrary, I mostly welcome new content. The idea that nobody would play it isn’t entirely true, at least everyone who plays as Italy for Germany would switch to this tree and then many others would follow, because the majority of people play more than one nation. As for sharing slots with Germany… I doubt Gaijin would do that, as it would mean losing a lot of money. Anyway, I wouldn’t have a problem with it, I’ve bought slots for the Germans, Japanese, Soviets and I would immediately do the same for the Italians.

[Dregomz]

@olek_z17

How else would the game progress though if you can’t add factions?

i would rather them to add unique nations like France that never had weapons and vehicles fully available in other nation trees

[olek_z17]

@Patton1998

basically the same situation as Terni but worse… there is no adequate information for example not even the caliber I’m sure it’s 8mm because in that photo it says it’s 8mm but in other descriptions it’s indicated as 6.5 it’s a mess but it’s worth it continue to investigate given that if the 8mm version exists it would be an excellent weapon (but even at 6.5 it would still be an extra weapon)

So no surviving examples of this gun exist, right?

Also, I have another question. I stumbled upon this thing when researching possible additions: Scotti Om42: troppo bella, troppo tardi - Armi e Tiro. Do you know by any chances what is its fire rate?

[Patton1998]

@olek_z17

So no surviving examples of this gun exist, right?

no survivors as far as I know

@olek_z17

Do you know by any chances what is its fire rate?

NOPE
not even in the Armi e Tiro article (who are the only source available thanks to the fact that they had the chance to see this recent rediscovery) is the rate of fire reported, at the moment it is unknown

here’s a cat for consolation

[olek_z17]

@Patton1998

As if feathers on helmets weren’t enough:)

@Patton1998

NOPE
not even in the Armi e Tiro article (who are the only source available thanks to the fact that they had the chance to see this recent rediscovery) is the rate of fire reported, at the moment it is unknown

That’s a shame. Regardless, with 20 rounds of 9mm Mauser Export I think it would be good for Tier II. High damage, but very low magazine capacity as as trade-off.

[Patton1998]

@olek_z17

That’s a shame. Regardless, with 20 rounds of 9mm Mauser Export I think it would be good for Tier II. High damage, but very low magazine capacity as as trade-off.

the SMG sector is perhaps the most well-equipped as regards the OM42, either information can be found or an estimate can be made (after all, I challenge someone to complain about a fictitious rate of fire after what the Japanese will receive)

other possible SMGs

Pavesi-Revelli submachine gun

Genar PM-470

SOSSO SMG

MAB38 prototype ( the barrel reminds me of some vintage space weapon XD )

While I won’t tell you this, you have to find out for yourself (spoiler, it’s not an Italian weapon)

[olek_z17]

OK, I promised a couple of days ago that I would show my idea of the tech tree, so here it is, with some explanation regarding my weapon and vehicle choices:

Tier I

Tier II

Tier III

Tier IV

Old premium squads

I decided to include the pre-merge premium squads, these ones:

• M13/40 (III) (moved to Tier I where it belongs)
• Beretta Mod. 31
• Breda 88 (P.XI) (moved from tech tree, replaced with the Ju 87 R-2)
• Re.2001 CN (moved from tech tree, replaced with the Re. 2001 CB)
• Lanciafiamme Mod. 35 (moved to Tier IV, renamed as the Mod. 40)

The only pre-merge Tunisia premium squads I did not include are the Pz.III N and the FNAB-43 squads. The former as it’s a German squad, and the latter because the FNAB-43 is already in the tree. I also think that the FNAB-43 squad would be a nice collectible squad, brought back for Enlisted birthdays and so on. Especially that it’s a Bersaglieri squad, so they’re even more collectible with their feather helmets.

Flamethrowers

All of the factions in the game have two tech tree flamethrowers, and I decided to do the same thing here. The problem was the pre-merge flametrooper premium squad, equipped with the Lf Mod. 35 which has stats of a Tier IV flamethrower (Flammenwerfer 41, M2 and so on). So to avoid having a weird situation where the chronologically first flamethrower is not the weakest one, I changed the name of the Premium squad’s flamethrower to the Lf Mod. 40 as I noticed that they have essentially identical gun parts. So now I have th Lf Mod. 35 at Tier III and the Lf Mod. 41 and the premium Lf Mod. 40 at Tier IV.

Lf Mod. 41

Tier I

Added:

• Vetterli-Vitali
  Because why not? It would be a cool bolt action rifle with a high damage but lower fire rate
• AS.42
  It’s just a classic. Plus it would serve as the Tier I SPAA for Italy. I put it in place of the M11/39 as I don’t think it would be a good vehicle. I’m not against it though, just was trying to fit the AS.42 somewhere.
• L3 Lanciafiamme
  Just so that the Italians can get a flamethrower tank. Since I don’t know if adding a vehicle with a trailer would be a good idea, I think it should be the variant with the smaller fuel tank mounted over the engine compartment.

Tier II

Removed:

• Scotti Mod. X
  It’s a battle pass weapon, and I feel like it’s too similar to the Armaguerra Mod. 39 to justify putting a battle pass weapon in the tree.
• OG-43
  The same thing, it’s an event squad weapon. Plus Italy has enough SMGs, it can do without the OG-43 in the tree.
• Lancia 3Ro (100/17)
  That was a gun truck, wasn’t it? Besides, premium APC squads seem to have actual APCs instead of trucks.

Added:

• Mannlicher M1895
  I found out that Italians used that rifle, so I added it. Because again, why not?
• Beretta M1
  Moved from Tier III - I think it should get its recoil slightly nerfed (or its magazine replaced by a 30 round one) and be moved into Tier II.
• Pz. III N
  Italians used it, so why not? It would be different from the other Tier II Italian tanks as it has a 75mm howitzer, so it would be good against infantry.
• C. 202EC
  There is no change there, just the name so that it’s the same as in the game.
• Ju 87 R-2
  In place of the Breda 88 which is a premium squad vehicle.
• Beretta Mod. 31
  From the pre-merge radiooperator squad.
• Fiat 655NM Protetto
  I was split between this and the Autoprotetto S.37, but the S.37 is too small (driver and 8 passengers). That and the Fiat is literally a battlebus, so the choice was kinda obvious:)
• Scotti Mod. 42
  It’s kinda interesting - just 20 rounds, but powerful ones (9mm Mauser Export). I don’t know its fire rate, but with that magazine capacity, I don’t think it can go anywhere besides Tier II.

Tier III

Removed:

• Pavesi M42
  Again, it’s a battle pass weapon, and I find a rifle that fits in that place better.
• Beretta M1
  Moved into Tier II.
• TZ-45
  Moved into Tier IV.
• Re.2001 CN
  Replaced by the Re.2001 CB variant in the tech tree as the CN is a premium vehicle.
• M14/41 (47/40)
  We already have the M13/40 (III) premium squad, these would be very similar.

Added:

• Beretta Mod. 37
  It’s the only Italian semi auto rifle I found that doesn’t use the Mannlicher style clip. It has a 9 round magazine and shoots the 7.35×51mm, so I think it’s a very good rifle for Tier III.
• Beretta M38/42
  It’s a Tier III weapon, so it should be here.
• OG-44
  It is too weak for Tier IV, at least if we assume the same fire rate as the OG-43, so 570 rpm upgraded, as well as the same recoil stats.
• StuG III G
  Again - Italians used it, so why not?
• Terni LMG
  From what I can gather about this weapon, it seems to be a “Breda Mod. 30, but better”. So I think it should have better recoil stats than the Breda and be at Tier III.
• 90/53 M41M
  It has 8 rounds, that’s why I believe it shouldn’t be at Tier IV, nor should it be in the research tree (too situational for my taste).

Tier IV

Removed:

• Cei-Rigotti
  I don’t believe it should be a tech tree weapon. I think there are multiple ways to implement it though, be it as a battle pass, premium or event weapon.
• Beretta M38/42
  Moved to Tier III.
• OG-44
  Moved to Tier III.
• SIA Mod. 38
  It has spade grips, I don’t think it would be usable as an LMG.
• 90/53 M41M
  Moved to Tier III as a premium.
• P43 Bis
  It’s a paper tank, i don’t believe they should be in the game.

Added:

• TZ-45
  From what I saw (here), it has a fire rate of around 750 rpm instead of 600, so it would actually fit well in Tier IV.
• MG 42
  In place of the SIA Mod. 38. I know, it’s kinda controversial as it’s not Italian, but I don’t have any ideas what to put there. The Scotti Mod. 37 seems to be a good candidate, but I need more photos and sources on it.
• Lf Mod. 41
  Simply as a Tier IV tech tree flamethrower.
• Pz.IV G
  As with the StuG III and Pz III - Italians used these, so they fit here. Plus it’s the only option if we want to avoid paper tanks.
• Fiat G.55
  It’s already in the game, so it should be here.
• Lf Mod. 40
  It’s meant to be the current Lf Mod. 35 squad, as I explained above.

Battle pass and event weapons:

• FNAB-43
  As I’ve said, I think it should be a collectible squad, returning on occasions like Enlisted birthday or some anniversaries regarding the Tunisia campaign.
• Cei-Rigotti
  As I said above, it should be implemented in many different versions (magazine capacities, barrel lengths and so on) and in many different ways. And, since from what I know, all variant were reloaded by stripper clips and had a rather low fire rate, they could all be Tier IV despite being full auto.
• “Pavesi SVT”
  Could be either a battle pass weapon or for some sort of event squad. From what I researched, not a lot is known about this rifle, so it could be either Tier III or Tier IV weapon.
• Terni M91
  Probably another Tier II rifle. I think it should be a battle pass weapon since we don’t seem to get event squads with lower tier weapons.
• SMGs
  In general - the Sosso, the Pavesi-Revelli or the PM-470 could be cool additions to the battle pass or as event weapons.

I’d like to hear what you think about this, and if I got anything wrong, feel free to correct me:)

[CapitanRastrero]

I agree with most of these improvements, save a few.

@olek_z17

Terni LMG
From what I can gather about this weapon, it seems to be a “Breda Mod. 30, but better”. So I think it should have better recoil stats than the Breda and be at Tier III.

Theres an actual better Breda Mod.30, its the Mod.30 chambered in 7.35

Only one L3/CV33(38) and its a premium?!
You could add a CV38 with the twin MGs and the top mounted Brixia Mortar. It would be a total infantry killer, gun em down with the MGs if they take cover lob a mortar shell at em. You would have to make it as nimble as it was IRL tho, I cant find the video but theres old propaganda film that shows the CV33s amazing agility and speed.

The Pavesi M42 has to be implemented into the regular research line, its the only Italian Semi Auto chambered in 8mm Breda and IDK about putting the strongest rifle behind a paywall/timed event. I thought premium and event weapoms and vehicles were meant for rare/unique stuff, and although the pavesi is rare and unique it is too poweful to justify charging for it. Makes it pay to win in a way(Cönders MG)

The P.43 issue is a funny one. Its a double standard that Japan can have their paper tank but Italy cant because…? It feels like BS.

[Overlander57]

So is this Italian campaign tree just going to be a mishmash of pre and post armistice Italian armies with a bunch of prototypes and German equipment as filler?

Are they going to have their own que in the matchmaker and fight only in Tunisia and Stalingrad?

How is this better then just adding more Italian weapons and squads to the German campaign?

[Heakler_CZ]

@Overlander57

So is this Italian campaign tree just going to be a mishmash of pre and post armistice Italian armies with a bunch of prototypes and German equipment as filler?

Here, I differ a bit from my colleague @olek_z17. While Olek is more in favor of integrating German weapons and technology, I would give more preference to purely Italian production. Primarily to make the Italian tree as unique as possible. Also, to prevent critics from complaining that it’s just a “copy-paste” tree. In my opinion, the Italian tree could be filled mostly with Italian weapons and technology, with German weapons potentially becoming premium items. At that point, it’s a tree that really has something unique to offer.

@Overlander57

Are they going to have their own que in the matchmaker and fight only in Tunisia and Stalingrad?

This has been explained here many times:

• They will fight only where they should, currently it’s Stalingrad and Tunis. They WILL NOT fight in Normandy, Moscow, Berlin, and the Ardennes; simply put, they will not be where they never fought. This way, Italian squads will stop dressing up as Germans and will fight in their uniforms on their own battlefields. In the future, they may get additional battlefields, as mentioned in this article: Italian faction is needed! 🇮🇹.

• Another thing. Matchmaking. Italians would, in most cases, currently in all cases, share the battlefield with the Germans. Italian and German players would form common teams for battles in Tunisia and Stalingrad. This would prevent the fragmentation of the community, as many fear.

@Overlander57

How is this better then just adding more Italian weapons and squads to the German campaign?

How is this better? It is better in every respect. The current state only suits players who play the German faction solely as Germans. Italians are discriminated against in every way. They fight in battlefields where they have no business being. Outside of Tunis, they wear German uniforms. They have to use German equipment (MG Nest, HMG, anti-tank guns, etc.). In the tree, they don’t have their own weapons represented, such as mortars, flamethrowers, and on top of that, they mostly have to research German weapons they don’t even want to use, logically, when playing as Italians. Simply put, those who play as Germans have nothing to complain about; the current state is advantageous for them. For Italian players, being under the wing of Germany is totally disadvantageous and frustrating. More or less, we are not really playing as Italians, but as Germans with Italian weapons and, in better cases, with Italian voices.

[Overlander57]

The war in North Africa and the Italian contribution to the eastern front were over by 1943, so all the mid-late war equipment and RSI squads are going to as anachronistic there as Italians in Normandy or Moscow.

It seems to me like turning Italy into a sub faction of Germany would be a better fix: They could flesh out the armament, add better uniform selection, reinstate the legacy Italian squads and add whatever’s missing.

Adding a new faction means more grinding, more filler unlocks, and further dilutes matchmaking que.

[olek_z17]

@CapitanRastrero

Theres an actual better Breda Mod.30, its the Mod.30 chambered in 7.35

OK, I read more and I think it is a good idea to implement it in Tier III. That way the Terni LMG could remain in the premium section as there would be an Italian Tier III LMG in the tech tree.

@CapitanRastrero

Only one L3/CV33(38) and its a premium?!

I believe that we should have Rider II squads with tankettes (or MG armed light tanks for the nations without tankettes). That way nations famous for using tankettes, namely Italy and (in the future) Poland, would be better represented.

@CapitanRastrero

The Pavesi M42 has to be implemented into the regular research line, its the only Italian Semi Auto chambered in 8mm Breda and IDK about putting the strongest rifle behind a paywall/timed event.

I’m not sure if the Pavesi is that powerful. I do have it and I don’t feel that much difference in damage when compared to regular semi auto rifles (Gew 41, SVT-40 and so on). Where I do feel a difference is the magazine capacity, which is why I believe that the Beretta Mod. 37 would be better. I’ve checked the parameters of the 7.35mm Carcano and its muzzle energy is quite close to the 7.7mm Arisaka, so the damage of the Mod. 37 would be similar to that of the Type 4 rifle (12.4 stock and 14.9 upgraded). And I believe that 9 rounds of 7.35mm Carcano is better than 6 rounds of 8mm Breda.

@CapitanRastrero

The P.43 issue is a funny one. Its a double standard that Japan can have their paper tank but Italy cant because…? It feels like BS.

It’s not a double standard for me - I believe that the Ho-Ri should never come into the game as Japan doesn’t need Tier V. The Tokyo Arsenal SMG is already a big stretch for me.

@Overlander57

Are they going to have their own que in the matchmaker and fight only in Tunisia and Stalingrad?

Yes, they should. And they also should get Italian maps (Liberation of Italy) when the Italian tech tree is separated.

@Overlander57

How is this better then just adding more Italian weapons and squads to the German campaign?

Because it would remove Italians from campaigns they never participated in - playing as Italians in Normandy is exactly the same as playing Soviets in Tunisia.

@Heakler_CZ

Here, I differ a bit from my colleague @olek_z17. While Olek is more in favor of integrating German weapons and technology, I would give more preference to purely Italian production. Primarily to make the Italian tree as unique as possible. Also, to prevent critics from complaining that it’s just a “copy-paste” tree. In my opinion, the Italian tree could be filled mostly with Italian weapons and technology, with German weapons potentially becoming premium items. At that point, it’s a tree that really has something unique to offer.

Just to clarify here, my hierarchy when it comes to adding weapons and vehicles goes as follows:
production equipment > prototype equipment > copy-paste equipment > “paper” equipment

If I’m able to find some more info on the Scotti Mod. 37 for example (fire rate, magazine capacity, caliber and so on), I’d be all for replacing the MG 42 with it. I’m already convinced to make some changes in my suggestion, so I’ll probably post it soon:)

[CapitanRastrero]

I’ve noticed that there are no suggestions on this thread for replacing the German emplaced weapons for Italian designs. I will list some suggestions.

Machinegun Nest:
Suggestion #1 Breda Mod.37

Feed: 20rnd Strip
Caliber: 8x59mm Breda
RoF: 460rpm

Suggestion #2 Fiat-Revelli Mod.35

Feed: Belt
Caliber 8x59mm Breda
RoF: 600rpm

Heavy Machinegun:
Suggestion #1 Breda Mod. 31

Air cooled with AA sights

Water cooled

Feed: 30rnd Magazine
Caliber: 13.2x99mm
RoF: 500rpm

Suggestion #2 Breda SAFAT (I dont like this one because it would be OP like the MG131 the germans get and it’s primarily an aircraft weapon as well)

Feed: Belt
Caliber: 12.7x81mm SR
RoF: 700rpm

Anti-Air Gun

Breda 20/65 Mod.35

Feed: 12rnd Strip (This is obviously less than the other AA cannons in the game, to offset this I would suggest that it should come with more ammunition in reserve by default)
Caliber: 20x138mm B
RoF: 500rpm

Anti-Tank Gun
Ansaldo 75/32 Mod.37

Feed: Breach Loaded
Caliber: 75x334mm R
Ammunition types: HE, AP, EP(Oops we made HESH) , EPS(HEAT)

[Heakler_CZ]

That’s true, we haven’t really discussed this much yet.

@CapitanRastrero

Suggestion #2 Fiat-Revelli Mod.35

I would definitely go for the Fiat-Revelli Mod 35 here. After all, a magazine with only 20 rounds would be a bit insufficient for this type of weapon.

@CapitanRastrero

Suggestion #2 Breda SAFAT

Kind of the same reasoning. It will be a powerful weapon, but hey, Italians need strong weapons.

@CapitanRastrero

Ansaldo 75/32 Mod.37

I didn’t even know about this anti-tank cannon, or I somehow overlooked it. Definitely an ideal anti-tank gun for Italian engineers!

[CapitanRastrero]

@Heakler_CZ

I would definitely go for the Fiat-Revelli Mod 35 here. After all, a magazine with only 20 rounds would be a bit insufficient for this type of weapon.

To be fair the Japanese Type 92 is also fed by 20rnd Strips but this feed systems allows for techniques that allow continuos fire by timing the insertion of the feed strips just right. Effectively in game the Breda Mod.37 would behave just like the Type 92 meaning that they are effectively fed by an invisible infinate feed strip.

[Wieloglow]

Will the Italy be a separate army, or players with German and Italian armies can play together in one team (“United Axis Army”) ?

[Myrm1don]

I like the thinking here.

Hoping this stuff shows up

[Heakler_CZ]

@Wieloglow

Will the Italy be a separate army, or players with German and Italian armies can play together in one team (“United Axis Army”) ?

In my opinion, the Matchmaking should have a soft rule that aims to create predominantly single-nationality battles if there are enough players available. So, when there is an excess of Italians at BR 1-2 waiting for a battle, the system will match them against the British, forming a purely Italian team. And if there are fewer players waiting for a battle, the Matchmaking will pair German and Italian players together in a joint battle, creating the “United Axis Army”. I would envision the same approach for the Allies.

[Heakler_CZ]

@CapitanRastrero

To be fair the Japanese Type 92 is also fed by 20rnd Strips but this feed systems allows for techniques that allow continuos fire by timing the insertion of the feed strips just right. Effectively in game the Breda Mod.37 would behave just like the Type 92 meaning that they are effectively fed by an invisible infinate feed strip.

That’s actually true, I forgot that the game bypasses the ammo rack system for towed machine guns. Well, in that case, it would depend on whether the developers would lean more towards the “Japanese” or “German” route. Or theoretically, the Breda Mod. 31 could be used for BR 1-2 and the Breda SAFAT for BR 3-4. Which might be ideal in my opinion.

[CapitanRastrero]

This is WAY off topic, but, I was discussing with a friend of mine and we also came up with this idea. I would personally love it if higher rank engineers would be able to build better fortifications and emplace more lethal weapons. Like for example engineer 1 and 2 can build single barrel AA guns but engineer 3 and 4 can build Double, Triple and Quad barrel AA guns. Another example, engineer 1 and 2 build Medium caliber AT guns, Engineer 3 and 4 Build Large caliber AT Guns. Using the Italians as an example:

Multi Barrel AA gun (Engi 3&4): Breda 20/65 Afusto Binato Double 20mm
(its a naval mount but hey…)

Heavy AT Gun (Engi 3&4): Ansaldo Cannone da 90/53 90mm

I dont know if I would extend the same benefit to HMGs and MMGs because not every nation has two plausible designs. I know germany has the MG18 PuF and the MG131 for HMGs but what would they have for MMGs? MG34 and 42? practically the same. Every other nation except Italy would not be able to provide two designs of MMG and HMG.