…no? A Carbine and Assault Rifle are two entirely different definitions. A Carbine is a short rifle. Often a normal full powered one cut down for Cavalry and Dragoons. In the case of the M1, M2, and M3 Carbines it’s the small rifle the US designed to replace the M1911 for backline troops. More of a PDW than anything else. An Assault Rifle is a select fire rifle in an intermediate cartridge. StG, AK-47, M16, etc
Now the M4 Carbine is a shortened M16, so to call that an Assault Rifle would be correct as it is a shortened Assault Rifle
However, the M2 Carbine is nothing but a modified M1 Carbine, which is classified as a Carbine. An Assault Rifle a modified Carbine does not make
Now, there is an argument to be made that .30 Carbine is essentially if America had invented the intermediate cartridge but without the technological advances of the early 20th century, aka spitzer and boat tail rounds. But, it’s classified as a Carbine, was adopted to be a PDW, and functioned as a Carbine alternative to the M1 Garand or the M1 Thompson for frontline troops. Then was modified in the factory to be full auto later down the line, if not field modified to do so by the troops earlier on
Incorrect. Almost all carbines before the M1 Carbine were full powered rifles that were cut down for Cavalry units
Correct
- I’m talking about modern definitions
- American definitions are just weird
By that logic, you can’t call the AVT-40 an automatic rifle, because it’s a modified battle rifle…
A carbine should be any rifle shortened, this is because its role was to arm the calvary. The question should be what a rifle round is, a pistol round, and an intermediate round. Whatever the m1 ‘carbine’ is so is the hyde so what is the m1c. Not a smg, not a carbine then what a pdw whatever that truly means. The squat 303 round of the m1 1/3 the length of the 1903 is not a pistol round.
The 303 carbine is spot on to the StG 44, hyde 1944 is an assault rifle and the m1 carbine should not be a carbine as it lacks a rifle round.
7.92×33mm Kurz - Wikipedia stg44.
.30 carbine - Wikipedia M1 carbine/hyde44.
yes US terms are weird but we are not alone just look up automatic carbines !
Beretta Model 1918 automatic carbine.
. Carabinetta Automatica O.V.P …
If I recall the term battle rifle is post ww2.
So I dont see any issues calling avt as automatic rifle.
that would be unfair, changing equipment after many years is a huge middle finger to players.
Posting a wikipedia article that doesn’t refute my statement isn’t much to go on.
The ribeyrolles, sure, that’s something you could consider an assault rifle. The M2 and M3 carbine, yes. Type hei auto and fedorov? Absolutely not.
I disagree. Sometimes change is necessary. It’s like I thought it was good to change the Gewehr 43 Kurz to remove the fantasy burst. Speaking of which I think that may need to be changed to an Assault weapon since it’s technically an assault rifle
doesnt really fit to effective range.
M1 carbine has practical range of 180m and “effective range” by a long stretch is 300yd aka ~280m.
While by definition of assault rifle the requirement is atleast 300m.
I guess.
Not by a definition of assault rifle
Excluding the ribeyrolles here, fedorov is probably the closest thing to assault rifle.
It is really “low power” rifle round, much closer to intermediate than conventional rifle rounds of that time.
One could argue, the only reason its not assault rifle, is the fact it uses rifle round regardless it would fit just fine in intermediate cartridge category, but wasnt invented as such.
.30 Carbine is much closer to high power pistol rounds rather than intermediate.
Sure, its debatable where to draw the line with pistols as murrican nutjobs builds .50cal pistols and what else.
not by definition a carbine either, 90% of carbines are one based on existing rifles shortened, the second group are pistol caliber carbines many reclassified as smg’s. outside of the m1 and m2 i can think of no intermediate caliber gun classified as a carbine, its clearly not a rifle nor a sub machine gun, and battle rifles are of course full rifle caliber as well. pdw;'s are weird but pistol caliber as well only assault rifles use intermediate rounds so how is it not an ar.
long gun that has a barrel shortened from its original length. Most modern carbines are rifles that are compact versions of a longer rifle or are rifles chambered for less powerful cartridges.
Dunno, seems to fit just fine in rifle chambered for less powerful cartridges.
Also fits just fine for who it was invented as well as the project was “light rifle”
M4 carbine ?
with quick glance, there seems to be plenty of carbines with intermediate cartridge.
did you miss the modern point to the comment, by the end of ww2 outside the m1 m2 carbine meant pistol caliber or short rifle of full rifle caliber bullet.
the m4 is a carbine of an assault rifle, not a rifle carbine
look in simple terms all weapons with rifling excluding cannons ect are rifles
but in military terms a carbine was applied to a shortened gun with rifle caliber ammunition. you cannot apply modern usages to past events its like calling german blitzkrieg shock and awe, or the mongolian mobile warfare blitzkrieg.
so no the m1 and m2 should not be carbines and the hyde 44 should be an assault rifle.
if you disagree include and intermediate caliber guns that existed before 1945 excluding the m1 and m2
also the light rifle program are not carbines and was an American program who could have called the M1C a toothbrush without pushback. just look how they decided the standard nato round after ww2. (I am American so i can say we can be pushy as hell)
Chauchat-Ribeyrolles 1918 submachine gun classified as smg
De Lisle carbine pistol caliber
HIW VSK
Kbk wz. 91/98/23
K31
(depends what you call intermediate and full sized)
Mosin–Nagant
(if 33mm long is intermediate then 55-57mm seems a bit long)
Karabiner 98k
“Jungle carbine” rifle round
i found one that fits
SKS
40mm length round so close enough but thats it every other
a has a bullet that is to big
or b came far later and are assault rifle carbine
You mean like this ?
Dunno, still seems to fit just fine in carbine category, while it has no business in assault rifle category.
Dunno, you said you cant think of any guns with intermediate cartridge being carbines outside of m1 or m2.
M4 carbine is first thing to that comes to my mind.
Okay, so as they were classified as carbines by theyr inventors and theyr users idk whats the problem here ?
Okay ? Like with what logic ? You just said modern definitions doesnt apply here ?
So how a gun thats classified as carbine suddenly is assault rifle ?
Vetterli ?
Light rifle is not exactly assault rifle either ?
I know very well, as this is the M2 assault rifle or not is something murrican neckbeard gun enthusiasts has been butthurt for over 20 years.
But as said, by definition assault rifle requires effective range of atleast 300 metres
( Murrican standard )
And M1/M2 has at most 300 yards ( A really fucking long stretch ) Its not 300 metres.
Regardless some butthurt neckbeard apparently has been lately rounding 300yds to 300m in wikipedia.
So yeah, i can tell murricans are pushy butthurt about the subject.
its actually also listed as carbine.
you mean the tube fed guns more then a 125 years old
also you missed the sks which is an intermediate round but clearly not an assault rifle nor smg
my point was not that the M1 or M2 were not classified as carbines but that they should not have been.
so we have the SKS M1 M2 and a handful of antiquated files that might have at there time been full rifle rounds.
again the m16 is an assault rifle, the m4 is a carbine of an assault rifle thus while having the same round is not like the m1 an intermediate of a rifle round.
yes you are right light rifles are not assault rifles but they are also not carbines so if you wanted to call the hyde 44 a light rifle…that would fit. and there is no need for name calling or are we twelve, if you are twelve or even under 18 i apologize for arguing with a child if not no name calling. also wiki is a poor primary source in fact most colleges do not accept wiki as a source.
Well you asked guns that existed before 1945 ?
Semi-automatic rifle seems to be its definition
I dont make the rules.
Dunno, it seems to be listed as M4 carbine.
Rather than M4 carbine of assault rifle M16
Light rifle, large smg, poor gun or carbine.
I dont really mind, its just not assault rifle by murrican standards.
I wasnt exactly calling any invidual here with names. But im deeply sorry if I accidentally hit the spot of neckbearded butthurt gun nerd enthusiast.
Never meant to insult.
Im sure they accept random people from enlisted forums as source.
But sure, as above explained the M2 has gotten some rounding up and mythical buffs to fit criteria of assault rifle.
So sure as open source, you may take it with grain of salt.
no you assumed, but i will inform you i do shave and bathe so am not a neck beard. if not implying me who were you talking about who is this mythical neck beard i would like to meet him or her.
actually the SKS was in the same list of carbines
as for the m4 i didn;'t know the m4 was made before 1945, shame they never used it against the forces of Hitler or Hirohito, or Mussolini.
Dunno, seems like you jumped to conclusion or feel like being the only neckbeard gun enthusiast murrican.
Eitherway, nothing personal.
Cool, carbine semi-auto rifle i dont care.
Well you asked for carbines with intermediate cartridge.
Only later you specified that you want exactly guns before 1945.
such as vetterli.
ANYWAY, with no amount of mental gymnastics M2 is assault rifle.
And I think we can end the conversation here.
well tell ,me how it is different from the stg44 cause i am not seeing it maybe its just me, otherwise you are right no one is winning this.