Erma EMP 44 vs Kiraly

Also we aren’t talking about such crazy mechanic as the AN94 has, delayed blowback is actually not that uncommon, mostly known in MP5 and G3 HK guns.

MP40 bolt has something similar where the bolt itself has some sort of spring inside of it that kinda functions that way, and I have seen a gun Jesus video about the Kiraly also talking about how that gun has a delayed blow back system.

The so called delayed blow back principle doesn’t reduce blowback, but rather it delays the felt impact and distributes it evenly for a longer period of time - so to speak it takes the sudden push of the shot and makes it push less but for a longer period of time.
This is also called constant recoil, and PPSH actually also has a very constant recoil impulse - not because of some extra mechanical part, but because of its increadibly fast rate of fire.

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technical terminology is not the best side of google translate. So, I need some additional explanations on some things.

It’s a shame that no one in Russia is interested in this weapon (Kiraly), so there aren’t even any digitalized documents about its testing in the USSR. Only separate excerpts from a magazine article.

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This all went way over my head, but I did successfully manage to tear my M16 down and reassemble it at USAF basic training. :rofl:

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there is a spring in any weapon)) the point was that the spring completely dampens the recoil. It was calculated that way on purpose. But this reduces the reliability of the weapon, so the developers reduced the friction between the bolt and the receiver. Usually they do the opposite, so that the bolt hits the spring with greater force. This simplifies the reloading cycle and increases the reliability of the weapon. But it increases the load on the parts, so recoil buffers are installed.
A weapon is always a set of compromises.

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check the 10 minute mark, its a very simple mechanic, no where near as insane as AN94.

the effectiveness is still debatable - I do believe I have actually seen a video of someone shooting a Kirlay, but I dont remember where and when… so I cant find it right now to compare performance sadly.

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That he may be, but he had never personally seen a single Danuvia 39M in real life.
Everything in that article is based on second hand information, most of it the Soviet evaluation of the gun in late 1944. It’s important to note that at that time the Red Army was not searching for a new submachine gun, but looking for elements to copy for their assault rifles.

Despite the Danuvia clearly using a pistol cartridge, it was identified by the Soviets as a “carbine”. They also failed to identify the obviously Hungarian markings and instead believed that the weapon was produced in Switzerland.
Soviet engineers had also never seen a 9mm Mauser export before and mistaken it for an intermediate cartridge.

The Danuvia 39 and 43M are very maintenance heavy rare submachine guns with only about 40 000 produced and Hungary was the only country by 1942 to use 9mm Mauser export, making ammunition for the guns very scarce. The soviet engineers at the time of testing only had one Danuvia 39M at their disposal, clearly in very bad condition, no spare parts and the document explicitly mentions that all ammunition they had available for it were rusty and dried.

Firing test was carried out and found the Danuvia 39M inaccurate with very poor results, however only a handful of Mauser export (all in terrible condition) were fired with the rest being 9mm parabellum that was never intended to be used by 39M.

Furthermore Soviets had no idea that 39M and 43M ammunition was not interchangeable which clearly caused feeding issues.
These tests were so brief that they didn’t even notice the actual problems of the weapon such as: the folding magazine which could fold in while firing if it was held incorrectly.

I think it’s already clear that these “tests” don’t prove anything other than how clueless Soviets weapon engineers were.
The only other nation to carry out firing tests with the gun is Hungary, their results are clearly much more accurate.

The theoretical firing range is 1000m
The effective firing range is 600m

The theoretical is obviously impossible even with the immense power of the 9x25mm Mauser, but it’s not just the muzzle velocity important for trajectory but also the weight of the projectile is equally important, a light projectile becomes prone to change course over long distance due to natural elements such as wind, air resistance and humidity etc.

Mauser export is slightly even heavier than both 8mm kurz and 30.cal, but has less muzzle velocity because its still a pistol round, albeit a very powerful one. Making the range of 600m plausible.
The effective 600m was obviously achieved in semi-auto while in full-auto its effective range is about 300-350 m which is still double the range of most WW2 SMGs.

The Hungarian museum of warfare even confirms that the 1942 evaluation of Haditechnikai intézet is indeed correct. Considering that they have more access to these weapons and documents than anyone else in the world, they must be right.

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I thought id seen the kiraly/danuvia fired.

But nope, it was this thing…this is awesome though

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He studied documents of people who saw it personally, shot it, personally. And specifically studied it, which is typical, also personally.

Why is this important? Where do these conclusions come from?

have you seen its size? The length of the barrel? What is the complaint?

oh, these stupid engineers, they could have looked it up on Wikipedia… In 1944… You personally say that this is a rare weapon. In 1944 it was also a very rare weapon, and the Hungarians clearly did not advertise it in the USSR in the middle of the war.

Where is it written? We are discussing the article I downloaded, aren’t we? Or do you believe that Google Translate translates “well” from Russian? No, it doesn’t. The word “intermediate cartridge” appears twice in the article and has nothing to do with the 9x25 cartridge.
In addition, here is a quote where they directly say that this is a pistol cartridge.
“The cartridge for the 39.M carbine cannot be considered a high-power pistol cartridge at all, like, for example, the cartridge for the 7.62 mm American M-1 carbine, since it is less powerful than some regular pistol cartridges”

What, where? Where is this written?

Where is this written? They fired a 9x19 cartridge to compare it with a 9x25. And the difference was small. That’s all that’s written there about shooting with 9x19 cartridges.

that you just made up an alternate universe. In which 8 gram 9 mm bullets fly 600 meters. I don’t get it, almost everything you said sounds like you made it up.

In Russia we call it - combat schizophrenia. It doesn’t sound very good in English and doesn’t convey the meaning. But I assure you, that’s exactly what you’re doing now. A 9x25 bullet at best has the same weight as a 7.92x33 bullet. But the muzzle energy of a 7.92x33 is almost 3 times higher.
350 meters you say? What is this bullet flying on, on elven magic?

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these tests were carried out after the Soviets were shocked by the StG44, they were obviously interested in studying assault rifles. However the Danuvia 39M is not an AR.

Yes, I did. magnificant gun, surprising light too, its even lighter than the thompson M1A1.

no it means that they were not familiar with foreign designs, Im sure even you can correctly guess where “Danuvia BP” was produced.

“intermediate” 7.92x33 mm cartridge among the trophies, the Soviet officers responsible for small arms waited tensely for much more of this enemy weapon to appear in the “catch”. And as is well known, he who seeks will always find. And so, among the next trophies, a strange “Hungarian” was found - clearly larger and heavier than the usual submachine guns, with a bayonet and chambered for a cartridge also larger than the standard 9x19 mm “Luger”.

“Shooting at a distance of 500 m was carried out with a sight of 6 and only with single fire, since with automatic fire it was impossible to catch all the bullets with the shield.”

It was not possible to check the full cycle of reliability of the automatic system, since not many cartridges were delivered with the “Hungarian”.
20 shots were fired with dry parts, dusty and thickly lubricated.

The difference is quite big actually
image

The entire weapon mechanism was built around maximising the effective range of the gun so I dont understand why you act so surprised.

I dont need to prove anything, this is to date the most accurate data we have.

just on a final note on how wrong they got everything, I will leave this here:
The testers even conducted test shooting from the “Hungarian” with a 9x19 mm cartridge, making sure that the average increase in speed was only 5 m/s.

9mm parabellum muzzle velocity: 400m/s
9mm Mauser export muzzle velocity: 450m/s

30.carbine is lighter than Mauser export making it more prone to already mentioned natural elements.

BTW what kind of political copium is this site on?
Képernyőfelvétel (1304)
Képernyőfelvétel (1305)
Your source didnt even check who was the chief engineer of the SIG MKMS on wikipedia.

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But 9x25… I like to imagine and compare it to 10mm rounds, as in 10mm MP5 - which fired 10x25mm.

Which is significantly smaller than STG ammo for example (7.92x33) or even AK and SKS ammo (7.62x39) or M1 .30 Carbine (7.62x33)

Those are already reaching their limit at those ranges, the Kiraly would probably stop having any use at 300m ranges.

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MP5 had half as long barrel as the Danuvia though.
Good example nevertheless, there are many similarities.

You are the first to finally compare it to another submachine gun.

So there are two important things to consider:
Towards the end of WW2, people realised that they typically fight between 200-300m or even less (at least infantry does, while tanks engage at longer distances) so weapons were made for that range while Danuvia was over engineered for maximum range like most pre-ww2 weapons.
The other question no asked, even though its very important is what does someone consider adequate for long range?

StG44 had an effective range of 300m in full auto and 600m in semi-auto.
M1 carbine had an effective range of 280m and SKS had 400m.
These rounds are so similar so why the difference? Do you guys seriously believe that these guns are only effective up to 300-400m?

All of these guns could easily kill or injure someone up to 1000m, but not all projectiles will hit the target!
This is more acceptable when you have 30 or 40 rounds since you can keep firing and dont expect to land all of your shots. Which is why StG44 is considered to have 200m more range than the SKS, even though the SKS is a more accurate rifle, In fact you can adjust the SKS sights from 100m to 1000m, but no one will shot for targets further than 400m anyway.

Its cute that people compare the Danuvia to carbines, but its not. Both 39M and 43M are SMGs, the 600m effective range was probably achived with low accuracy rate, low as it may have been, it was deemed adequate for 600m at that time, not that it matters since no one will shot that far.

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I know these numbers, since I just looked at them an hour ago on Wikipedia … well lets just say these are estimations…

for example to think that STG had like 300 meters more range than an AK is kinda silly.
“effective range” is a very broad concept and kinda based on personal believe what could be “used with good faith”

many people for example agree that 300 meters is the maximum effective range for iron sights, yet I have seen videos of AKMs hit reliably enough a human sized target at even 600m

One thing I can see being true, is that generally speaking, a projectile with bigger mass usually loses velocity slower and stays more stable after longer travel distance, despite having more bullet drop.

5.56 for example shoots very very flat because of how fast it is, but it starts to become very unstable and inaccurate very suddenly when reaching long range, while 30 cal projectiles keep traveling stable at longer ranges despite being slow.
So a 9x25mm could theoretically have a longer real flight range than a 7.92x33 kurz round, kinda like how 9x39 VSS rounds can reach quite far for being a sub sonic bullet, BUT personally I like playing with the thought that pistols have a range of 100m, SMGs could be maybe 200m because of being shoulder fired and having a longer barrel, carbines and smaller intermediate rounds reach up to 300 meters, assault rifles reach up to 600 meters, and full power rifles up to 600 meters. These numbers are totally arbitrary and just my personal estimations, but non the less IF compared to each other reasonable.

IF someone would argue that a Mosin could theoretically hit up to 1000 meters distance, then this estimation should also reflect other weapons equally optimistic.

Personally I like to give WW2 weapons especially an extra grain of doubt in their abilities, considering that even most rifles had under 3 or 4 MOA which is quite terrible for modern standards, still you are right that a hit is possible.

So in short, we should all agree that this debate is naturally quite opinion based.

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it would be an interesting thought experiment to figure out at what barrel length each round would reach its optimal velocity, barrel length helps only if there still is powder to burn, at a certain point adding more barrel can actually negatively influence projectile performance.

I dont know how to exactly figure out those numbers, but a Kiraly 9x25 mm SMG having a longer barrel than a MP5 9x19 mm SMG is only natural, since x25 means more powder than x19.

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and one last thing, I obviously only use very vague estimations when comparing those rounds, size tells us nothing about real pressure of a cartridge nor its shape nor the twist rate of the barrel it is fired from.

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that is true, I think we are all familiar with the 9x19 glisenti, a weaker copy of 9x19 parabellum, Italian pistols were only made for glisenti and exploded if loaded with 9x19 parabellum which did happen in WW1, due to captured stocks.

I think that the MP5 barrel was designed to be shorter for CQC, not because of its range.

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buddy

How much money do you need to be able to shoot it?

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MKb.42 was captured in the spring-summer of 1943. “НИПСВО (Научно-Исследовательский Полигон Стрелкового Вооружения) ГАУ КА” was engaged in the testing of all foreign weapons, both lend-lease and captured.

and when were they supposed to learn about enemy weapons during the war? You won’t believe it, but this is literally their first encounter with these weapons. What are your complaints? There is no internet yet, no Wikipedia, hello?

and where is it called an intermediate cartridge? Once again, the text does not say anywhere that the 9x25 cartridge is intermediate.

I think you’re trying to fool me?
Okay. Here are the complete quotes.

However, further study of the cartridge caused the officers to ask a puzzled question: “was it worth the effort?” The testers even conducted test firing from the “Hungarian” with a 9x19 mm cartridge, finding that the average increase in velocity was only 5 m/s. And increasing the barrel length to 500 mm did not have much effect either. And why, one wonders, did they pile it on?

“The 39.M carbine cartridge cannot be considered a high-power pistol cartridge at all, like, for example, the cartridge for the 7.62 mm American M-1 carbine, since it is less powerful than some regular pistol cartridges.”

It was not possible to check the full cycle of reliability of the automatic system, since not many cartridges were delivered with the “Hungarian”. 20 shots were fired with dry parts, dusty and thickly lubricated. The 39M passed this stage with dignity, the automatic system worked without failures.

I will explain. These are tests of the weapon’s reliability. The testers themselves removed the grease from the weapon and fired 20 shots. Then they sprinkled dust on the weapon and fired 20 shots again. Then they lubricated the weapon with a large amount of grease and fired 20 shots. The weapon proved itself reliable. The condition of the weapon and the cartridge is not mentioned.

because it’s physically impossible. A bullet won’t even penetrate a helmet at that distance. If I throw a rock at your head, it will do more damage than a 9mm bullet at 600 meters. The real combat effectiveness of a submachine gun is 100 meters. Maximum 150 meters. People invented the intermediate cartridge for a reason, you know.

Bro. They fired different bullets from the same weapon. What, you just took the data from the MP40? Well done. I’ll just applaud. The MP40 barrel length is 140 mm, I think. But the 39M has 500 mm.
The funniest thing is that Kiraly himself made the Danuvia 44.M for the 9x19 cartridge.

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I think we can trust German gunsmiths in this matter. After all, the 9x25 cartridge was produced for the Mauser C96 pistol with a 140mm barrel.

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