Erma EMP 44 vs Kiraly

MKb.42 was captured in the spring-summer of 1943. “НИПСВО (Научно-Исследовательский Полигон Стрелкового Вооружения) ГАУ КА” was engaged in the testing of all foreign weapons, both lend-lease and captured.

and when were they supposed to learn about enemy weapons during the war? You won’t believe it, but this is literally their first encounter with these weapons. What are your complaints? There is no internet yet, no Wikipedia, hello?

and where is it called an intermediate cartridge? Once again, the text does not say anywhere that the 9x25 cartridge is intermediate.

I think you’re trying to fool me?
Okay. Here are the complete quotes.

However, further study of the cartridge caused the officers to ask a puzzled question: “was it worth the effort?” The testers even conducted test firing from the “Hungarian” with a 9x19 mm cartridge, finding that the average increase in velocity was only 5 m/s. And increasing the barrel length to 500 mm did not have much effect either. And why, one wonders, did they pile it on?

“The 39.M carbine cartridge cannot be considered a high-power pistol cartridge at all, like, for example, the cartridge for the 7.62 mm American M-1 carbine, since it is less powerful than some regular pistol cartridges.”

It was not possible to check the full cycle of reliability of the automatic system, since not many cartridges were delivered with the “Hungarian”. 20 shots were fired with dry parts, dusty and thickly lubricated. The 39M passed this stage with dignity, the automatic system worked without failures.

I will explain. These are tests of the weapon’s reliability. The testers themselves removed the grease from the weapon and fired 20 shots. Then they sprinkled dust on the weapon and fired 20 shots again. Then they lubricated the weapon with a large amount of grease and fired 20 shots. The weapon proved itself reliable. The condition of the weapon and the cartridge is not mentioned.

because it’s physically impossible. A bullet won’t even penetrate a helmet at that distance. If I throw a rock at your head, it will do more damage than a 9mm bullet at 600 meters. The real combat effectiveness of a submachine gun is 100 meters. Maximum 150 meters. People invented the intermediate cartridge for a reason, you know.

Bro. They fired different bullets from the same weapon. What, you just took the data from the MP40? Well done. I’ll just applaud. The MP40 barrel length is 140 mm, I think. But the 39M has 500 mm.
The funniest thing is that Kiraly himself made the Danuvia 44.M for the 9x19 cartridge.

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I think we can trust German gunsmiths in this matter. After all, the 9x25 cartridge was produced for the Mauser C96 pistol with a 140mm barrel.

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I dont know mate, it should be heavier than 9x19 right?

I think as long as the mass is big enough, it keeps some damage potential at very high ranges.

Wikipedia says the bullet is 0.5 grams heavier. There are many factors that are important here, so it’s hard to say for sure. Yesterday I read that the TT bullet has about 5 times less energy at a distance of 500 meters. And the 9mm bullet has even less, paradoxically.

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Completely unrelated since that was due to ammo shortage of 9x25, Its called Király-Győrik btw because it was not offically adopted and most of the design was made Győrik by modifying Danuvia43M.

Its a good comparison since 9mm is still on the market and manufacturers since made even more powerful variants of it as technology advanced, but the legendary MP5 also has 400m/s so its reasonable to consider WW2 military grade 9mm to be 400m/s.
Had the 9x25mm been in combat worthy state, the difference would have been 50m/s if not higher considering that the parabellum was not made for Danuvia so 9x19 would probably lose power rather than gain.

Update: I just found the muzzle velocity of Király-Győrik
Its 402m/s with 253mm long barrel so the ammunition used for testing was 100% flawed, but we already knew that.

Still probably wouldn’t penetrate a helmet, but would go through clothing and injure someone.
Not that it matters since combat takes places in shorter distances so no one will actually use a submachine gun for such range, but being able to hit someone/something up to 600m is impressive though not ubelievable since similar tests found the effective maximum range of submachine guns are higher with 50-100m than their realistic combat range, I guess its easier to hit a target when its not shooting back especially with a gun and ammo straight out of the factory.

I dont know, I didn’t fire that baby :disappointed_relieved:
Plus its restricted here to semi-auto only.

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I have an M1 Thompson I bought in 2017. It’s not original WW2 but new, and to pass US Federal law the barrel is longer. I have never fired it either, and since I am in the Philippines, my oldest son is now the current owner. I also have an SKS my former boss gave me along with an actual WW2 Japanese Type 99 rife, but again, had to leave them along with my 1911 with my son. He’s not upset though, in fact I think he is quite pleased. :rofl:

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As a German citizen I must say I am very jealous.

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Were you there personally? The only thing we learned is that you are a big liar. And the fact that in the book, the shooting range is slightly (6 times) exaggerated.

By the way. Found something interesting. MP 35/I was also produced for 9x25 cartridge. The game doesn’t say this directly, BUT the characteristics of MP 35/I are very similar to Kiraly M39.

I have comparison of mp35/I and Danuvia 39M


No range given sadly, only mentions that Danuvia has unusual range way past 250m

First time I heard of that.

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It was produced in multiple ammo For example Danish licensee produced MP35s were in 9×23mm Largo
.Some were also made for export to south America which those M35s were chambered in .45 ACP like export variant of MP34
The game one is German pruduced MP35 which were in 9X19 parabellum
There were variants in 9mm Mauser export but I haven’t seen any pictures in other ammos beside 9x19

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interesting, so the extra damage was done because of a potential different ammo you say?

In 1934, a more advanced version of the BMP-34 (or MP.34/I) was created based on the BMP-32 design and was mass-produced at the Carl Walther factory. A total of about 2,000 were manufactured in 9x19 mm Luger, 9x23 mm Largo, 7.63x25 Mauser, .45 ACP, 9x25 mm Mauser Export calibers[1]. The main consumers of the MP.34/I were the German police and the Bolivian army[2].

This is strange, but there is more information about this on the Russian Wikipedia.

I can’t say. But this is the only weapon chambered for 9mm with a bullet speed of 440 meters per second.
except for the Soviet PPSh (450 m/s) and even the PPSh “Obrez” (450 m/s). live with it. And the Italian OVP M1918 (435 m/s)

Magazine Name: MP 35 magazine

Magazine Size: 32

Ammunition: 9x19_parabellum_smg_long_barrel
vs
Magazine Name: danuvia_43m_magazine

Magazine Size: 40

Ammunition: 9x25_mauser_export_smg

There’s about half a dozen variations of 9x19 para rounds ingame

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I diggid up the book again (about time)

Turns out the army had the same ideas as we did.
They tested an experimental ammuntion marked as “kísérleti lőszer” of 6.1g and 647 m/s muzzle velocity which is only 38m/s less than the 8mm kurz fired from a StG44.
They also tested the Mauser round and the 35M rifle with 8x56mmR for comparison.
The test was carried out with the targets 300m away


The experimental ammo had improved trajectory, but around 250m the dispersion became too much proving that the muzzle velocity fetish is flawed and the mass of the projectile is much more important at minimizing dispersion.

The heavier Mauser round is much more suitable for medium range shooting and could theoretically hit targets much further away however there is another issue none of use realised: the arc of the trajectory.

When compared to the rifle, its obvious that even with the impressive range of the Danuvia, the only realible way to hit targets further than 300m away is by using the tangent sight.

The 1000m theoretical and 600m “practical range” means that it would be possible to hit the target but only by adjusting the sight, so the range is indeed tied to the sight, but unlike other SMGs, there is an actual chance to score a hit.

However having to rely on the tangent sight during combat seems unrealistic so I will stick to my prior opinion that its realistic range is 300m or slightly more in the hands of professional shooter, though it could hit further tragets as well, but probably not in combat condition.
(Thus dropping my flawed theory of 600m in semi-auto).

Considering that there is no sign of serious tests further than 300m by the Hungarians, I find it safe to assume that they had similar opinion.
Further more the followings were reported:
The Danuvia is not suitable to replace rifles (so much for the carbine theory)
The weapon can penetrate a helmet up to 140m.

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