Battle score

[robihr]

depends on the model you want to implement. is it max BR per squad and then weighted average for squads, is it weighted average per squad equipment and then average/weighted average/max BR on squads.

it depends on model and weights assigned to it.

this was one of my posts on the topic

@robihr

you could also use weighted average, so bigger difference between tiers, more weight highest tier has. e.g. if you match 3 squads of kar98k that has BR=1 and tiger 2 that has rating 10, you make tiger 2 score carry 90% of the weight in calculating average and those 3 squads of kar98k only 10% that way you would get 9.1 BR if you try to cheese the system. this could be interesting system for diversity. but i am ok with max BR.

you can tune it more, but values need to be extreme and then it is no different than max BR. if you dont put extreme values for weights then you could easily have squads with t4 equipment downtiered to t3 MM, or squads with t3 equipment downtiered to t2.

[VoyoMayPL]

@robihr

depends on the model you want to implement. is it max BR per squad and then weighted average for squads, is it weighted average per squad equipment and then average/weighted average/max BR on squads.

I used system that doubles weapon’s BR for each BR above the average.

@robihr

if you dont put extreme values for weights then you could easily have squads with t4 equipment downtiered to t3 MM, or squads with t3 equipment downtiered to t2.

I’d say that’s the whole point. To bring some BR+1 equipment at a cost of bringing also BR-1 etc. equipment.

[robihr]

@VoyoMayPL

I’d say that’s the whole point. To bring some BR+1 equipment at a cost of bringing also BR-1 etc. equipment.

it doesnt end up with just some, but could end up with whole squad bringing semi automatics in t2 fight with bolties. semi auto is extremely useful in clearing caps. or you have squads with mp40 or ppsh41 against t1 and t2 MM. or you can bring flamethrower against opponents who never saw flamethrower etc.

[VoyoMayPL]

In my “tests” full BR1 + one BR5 weapon (in the whole setup) placed you at BR4 or in the worst case BR3.
So “full squad of” didn’t happen. You had to have really low weight in your calculations if they allowed it.

[robihr]

cause you tested BR5 weapon. what about BR4 weapon? or BR 3 weapon? how many of those can they get in t1/t2 MM?

[VoyoMayPL]

Generally full setup of BR1 gear allowed to bring one weapon one BR lower.
Of course numbers aren’t final etc. With 2x/BR weight it’s a rather harsh system.

If for some reason somebody needs to see the math.

[JAREDUP]

I personally think we should keep max BR but have a points or cost system. So if you wanna bring a high tier tank it will pull points from your pool to use. You could instead bring a ton of assault rifles, but not have enough points to bring a max tier tank etc.
With this some weapons like starter weapons will be free to bring no matter what while mid tier weapons use some points but not a lot.

High tier has larger pool of points while low has lower etc.

And to make the devs happy premiums bypass the points or are at a reduced rate.

[robihr]

@VoyoMayPL

Generally full setup of BR1 gear allowed to bring one weapon one BR lower.

@VoyoMayPL

And then a fuck up
(26x BR1 + BR5)/27 = BR1,14 ~ BR2
BR5 - BR2 = 3
BR5 * 2^3 = BR40
(26x BR1 + BR40)/27 = BR2,44 ~ BR2,5

does that mean that 3 9man squads of riflemen with kar98k will allow you to smuggle in KT in mid tiers?

[VoyoMayPL]

Yes. There is a problem with rounding the results between calculations.
Later I rounded only the final result and it was ok. BR3.5 or BR4 depending how you make BR brackets.

[robihr]

@VoyoMayPL

BR3.5 or BR4 depending how you make BR brackets.

so in current system it would possibly put you either in t3 that can see both high and low, or it would give you basically same result as max BR. if there are 3 queues it could put you at mid level queue where there is no counter for it besides the plane.

that means your system needs more weight, but if you add even more weight you could end up basically with max BR system.

[Lisqs]

maybe max br for vechicles only

[VoyoMayPL]

For some reason when I was counting this I was thinking about “normal” BR± system, not this weird 2 queue thing. I just now realised.
I guess we found my mistake.

[tommyZZM]

The biggest problem with the BR they are currently working on is not considering the number of weapons. You can’t avoid questions about quantity in Enlisted.

He leads to what is called abuse at any level. And it caused some equipment to not be arranged in the proper position.

For example, carrying a large grenade package is completely different from carrying 9. Once they set up BR for additional gear they will face the same awkward situation

There will be no balance in combat. There are already many players preparing their “best” gear for each upcoming BR to give them an edge in the new BR.

For example, rifle grenades or PPS-42 low-level BR assault squads armed to the teeth.

You claim that BR will protect new players, why are you turning a blind eye to this? The new BR will become a heavier mountain on the head of every progress grinding player.

Dude you have to deal with numbers of weapons here… Or is this a vehicle based War Thunder?

The most complementary point is that I think it is so acceptable for a person who has just obtained a new weapon, such as PPD34/38 or even STG, to bring it more frequently to mid- and low-level battles. Maybe you’re just too sensitive to STG. So much so that you have ignored other so called BR4 or BR5 weapons, PPD, DP, MG34, etc.

If you think these things are an abuse, then obviously there will be more “abuse” in the current BR system, and you can’t talk about balance without talking about the number of weapons unless you enjoy it.

@VoyoMayPL

“normal” BR± system

If you use the numbers 500, 1230, 2200 … instead of converting it to BR 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 you will get suitable results.

The former is basically close to the suggestion in the forum to set BR to 100 levels. But it pays more attention to balance, and there is no need to pay attention to its level.

Any combination of equipment can get a score suitable for him.

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Another problem is that many weapons have nowhere to go and have better alternatives in the BR where they belong. We only have categories 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5.

This overly simple system is unfriendly to many players. It doesn’t creates balance for many players…

Not to mention that new players who purchased a premium squad will be thrown into the “fair” competition of BR4 or BR5 in the new system. This is not a situation that players want to encounter, and this will seriously affect the value of these premium squads. Economic value to developers.

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Simple logic is that if you have to talk about balance then you have to factor in quantity.

Unless you’re fighting a single soldier in lone wolf mode, or doing some sort of robot farm battle where you can kill many enemies with one soldier.

But in PvP combat, if you don’t consider the factor of quantity, you can’t talk about the so-called balance.

This is a key factor that affects the combat ability of every living player. Players with more weapons have more opportunities to try, and at the same time, his AI will hit more enemies.

Enlisted is squad-based and each player commands several soldiers in combat, rather than one soldier or one tank.

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Of course, I think our debate here may spoil the topic, so I will send you the same text message. and discuss with you in message

So that we can understand each other’s ideas accurately, you ask for balance and I ask for the number of weapons to be considered, and I don’t think there is any conflict there.

[robihr]

@tommyZZM

There will be no balance in combat. There are already many players preparing their “best” gear for each upcoming BR to give them an edge in the new BR.

For example, rifle grenades or PPS-42 low-level BR assault squads armed to the teeth.

You claim that BR will protect new players, why are you turning a blind eye to this? The new BR will become a heavier mountain on the head of every progress grinding player.

i am not claiming that BR will protect new players. new players only need a chance with same tier weapons. that is why i am against bringing higher tiered weapons inside lower tiered match.

also i am for better MM and that is to divide it into 3 instead of 2 MM queues (with 6 BR-s ) so that there is not such extremes in weapons and i am for reduction of grind so players can get better weapons faster.

@tommyZZM

The most complementary point is that I think it is so acceptable for a person who has just obtained a new weapon, such as PPD34/38 or even STG, to bring it more frequently to mid- and low-level battles. Maybe you’re just too sensitive to STG. So much so that you have ignored other so called BR4 or BR5 weapons, PPD, DP, MG34, etc.

i am not ignoring them. i am using stg and fedorov as examples cause they are most versatile and strong weapons. you can easily put flamethrower 2 inside and you will get same result. ppd34/38 with drum magazine is also OP if it is allowed in low tier battle cause it can clear whole cap with one magazine.

@tommyZZM

Not to mention that new players who purchased a premium squad will be thrown into the “fair” competition of BR4 or BR5 in the new system. This is not a situation that players want to encounter, and this will seriously affect the value of these premium squads. Economic value to developers.

there is also option of having OP squads for their tier and then game becomes p2w and lots of players leave the game.

@tommyZZM

But in PvP combat, if you don’t consider the factor of quantity, you can’t talk about the so-called balance.

This is a key factor that affects the combat ability of every living player. Players with more weapons have more opportunities to try, and at the same time, his AI will hit more enemies.

Enlisted is squad-based and each player commands several soldiers in combat, rather than one soldier or one tank.

when you can bring weapon with short time to kill that can kill multiple people in short period of time it is pointless to talk about quantity.
problem is not that it is only 1 soldier, but that soldier can drop that weapon and instead of 1 soldier using 1 weapon, suddenly it becomes 2 soldier using 1 weapons. if soldier that picked up has secondary weapon (radio man, engineer, AT soldier, mortar man), it can easily become 3rd soldier etc.

you can make whole builds based on exploiting one high tier weapon in low tier MM

[Euthymia07]

@TimTaine

Seems to me it would allow more variety, be more flexible and much easier to balance with ongoing adjustments.

Would also allow using higher tier weapons against BR 1 noobs, so the opposite of being easier to balance

[tommyZZM]

@robihr

it is pointless to talk about quantity.

@robihr

new players. new players only need a chance with same tier weapons

If you don’t face the fact that Enlisted is a game based on squads and several soldiers, then I think you’re missing the point. and deviation from the actual situation.

@tommyZZM

For example, rifle grenades or PPS-42 low-level BR 2 assault squads armed to the teeth.

@robihr

so that there is not such extremes in weapons and i am for reduction of grind so players can get better weapons faster.

Good then in current system PPS-42 low-level BR 2 assault squads works for

@Euthymia07

against BR 1 noobs

The BR1 novices are more difficult to fight against, with three PPS-42 cycles of assault squad + medic squad. Armed to the teeth and equipped with grenades.

Another option is 27 rifle grenades looping

I think it is easier for BR2 newbies to fight against 1 STG + 8 98k.

[robihr]

@tommyZZM

If you don’t face the fact that Enlisted is a game based on squads and several soldiers, then I think you’re missing the point. and deviation from the actual situation.

so one weapon that can wipe the whole squad of 9 people vs squad with BA. do you think this is fair matchup? if you hit human player with first, bots wont even have time to react before you wipe them out.

@tommyZZM

Good then in current system PPS-42 low-level BR 2 assault squads works for

that is stupid and OP considering axis counterparts.

[tommyZZM]

Any system that considers quantity will not require developers to make any modifications to their grind speed, as it is a matter of financial gain for them.

Your claim that asking developers to grind XP faster is beside the point and further complicates the issue, you are just avoiding the quantity issue.

Again, if you’re really talking about balance you have to think about quantity.

At the same time, players can face enemies more similar to them with the appropriate number of weapons equipped.

@robihr

so one weapon that can wipe the whole squad of 9 people vs squad with BA

@Euthymia07

against BR 1 noobs

For example, rifle grenades or PPS-42 low-level BR 2 assault squads armed to the teeth.

Just one example, you can’t protect newbies, so why talk about 1 STG and 98k.

Obviously the PPS-42 squad in BR2 and rifile grenade, which is armed to the teeth, is more difficult to deal with.

I forgot, you can have bolt-action rifles for snipers in low-level BR, which makes you very able to against 1 powerful enemy. But it’s a pity that if you face a cycle of dozens of rifle grenades you will be powerless

Why can’t you put forward a number of improvement suggestions for this number of weapons issue?

[robihr]

@tommyZZM

Any system that considers quantity will not require developers to make any modifications to their grind speed, as it is a matter of financial gain for them.

i am getting lost in your english… are you talking about quantity of weapons in tech tree?

@tommyZZM

Your claim that asking developers to grind XP faster is beside the point and further complicates the issue, you are just avoiding the quantity issue.

i want them to remove mandatory grind from half the weapons. so instead of grinding 6 BA rifles, you would need to grind 2-3 BA rifles and other rifles would be optional grind that dont affect your progress to another tier. lot of weapons/vehicles have marginal performance upgrade compared to same or next tier.

@tommyZZM

This is a disguised admission that rifle grenades or low-level BR assault teams armed to the teeth with PPS-42 are feasible in the BR system they are testing.

have played only on 1 test server and havent tested actual BR. but i agree that pps42 is OP for its tier, but not as much as e.g. ppd34/38 or ppsh41 with drum magazine.
also idk if i would call rifle grenades OP. they can be certainly annoying at times when you have someone who knows how to use them, but not OP.

@tommyZZM

Just one example, you can’t protect newbies, so why talk about 1 STG and 98k.

and newbies also have access to rifle grenades just as enemy in that case. so it is fair game. not so much with pps42. this needs to be adjusted somehow.

[tommyZZM]

@robihr

quantity of weapons

Maybe you misunderstood some words, examples. But I think my other words still get the point across.

numbers of weapons

This is not a problem that can be solved just by modifying the BR of a certain weapon, this is a problem about their Number occurred in the battle

BR2 Squad (medic)in player A

• 1 pps-42
• 1 pps-42
• 1 pps-42
• 1 pps-42
• 1 pps-42

BR2 Squad in player A

• mosin_1928_grenade_launcher x2
• mosin_1928_grenade_launcher x2
• mosin_1928_grenade_launcher x2
• mosin_1928_grenade_launcher x2
• mosin_1928_grenade_launcher x2
• mosin_1928_grenade_launcher x2
• mosin_1928_grenade_launcher x2
• mosin_1928_grenade_launcher x2
• mosin_1928_grenade_launcher x2
• mosin_1928_grenade_launcher x2

BR2 Squad (assault)in player A

• 1 pps-42 with grenadersss
• 1 pps-42 with grenadersss
• 1 pps-42 with grenadersss
• mosin_1928_grenade_launcher x2
• mosin_1928_grenade_launcher x2
• mosin_91_30 with grenadersss

vs

BR1~2 Squad in player B

• 1 98k
• 1 98k
• 1 98k
• 1 mp38

BR1~2 Squad in player B

• 1 98k
• 1 98k
• 1 mp38
• 1 ZB-26
• 1 98k

This is not a fair at all

BR2 Squad (medic)in player C

• 1 mosin
• 1 mosin
• 1 mosin
• 1 pps-42

player C would be Okay for player B. But player A is not easy to deal by player B

This situation will be more serious in BR3, 4, and 5, because the gap between players in the number of weapons will be even greater.

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What I mean is that any points based BR will better take into account the number of weapons the player has. Currently, BR that only considers weapon types cannot create balance.

Once you consider the quantity, 1 STG is no longer an issue

even a medic Squad with

- 1 pps-42 - 1 pps-42 - 1 pps-42 - 1 pps-42 - 1 pps-42

can deal with a Sqaud with

- 98k - 98k - 98k - 98k - 98k - STG

This is why you can’t claim that players can handle 1 advanced BR weapon.

If you claim that it is to protect novices, then the Player ABC example of BR1~2 above has shown that the current BR cannot protect novices.

Because any veteran player with enough resources can use his more orders and weapons than newcomers to

@Euthymia07

against BR 1 noobs

I think the description of a low level BR squad armed to the teeth is clear.

Different combinations of different types of weapons and their quantity will affect combat effectiveness.

1 gun may be powerful in lone wolf mode, but if you are not doing a robot farm battle, it will not be recycled as you said.

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Enlisted regular battle is not about a particular gun.

If it is not a robot farm battle.

In pvp it is about how the player achieves victory in combat with his squad and his teammates.

It’s not fair if you don’t have the same number of weapons as your opponent.

Yes, the team equipped with PPS-42 is also capable of fighting against advanced BR5 battles.

In this case, the current testing BR system that only counts one weapon becomes even more meaningless. Because it neither brings balance nor allows for the possibility and fairness of combinations.

If you carry a squad of -98k -98k -98k -G43 -G43 -MG34 and are assigned to a battle in BR4~5 to face the Sweat Lord of BR5, this is absolutely unfair to the players.