Petition - Do not add the Saboteur class to the game

Suggestions Other
30

Well, here’s how I see it, they will spawn with regular uniforms - move behind enemy lines, kill an enemy and steal their uniform

If a player actually even manages to do that - well what ever let him have fun trolling the enemy for a few kills. unless that player is actually going full larp mode really pretending to be part of the enemy team to take out rallies there is no way this class is gonna have a big impact on the game, but even walking across the battlefield alone is a massive task and most will die trying.

Again its just one soldier.

2 Likes
31

Yeah the uniform mechanic should 100% be deactivated for lone fighter.

1 Like
32

At first I disliked this class but have thought about it and can welcome it. But it is very controversial. The only bright side is that at the very least it is just for a little event and thus won’t be in game for some time. It can be shelved for now

We could add more pertinent classes, like Grenadier or I have other cool ideas like

  • Glider
  • Marine
  • Mountain
2 Likes
33

My main issue is that this class entierly fails to fit in to what Enlisted is supposed to be.

What is Enlisted…?

It’s a Fast-Paced WW2 Squad-Based Combined-Arms Shooter.

  • How does Saboteurs perform under the Fast-Paced label…?

Not at all…

This class, as described, would be low-impact upon gameplay, have zero of the combat staying power of other classes (even guerillas are five men squads armed with SMGs, not insignificant, especially in mid-BRs).

This is a class that requires, as Batman enthusiasts will recognise, setup time. By the time you’re in position to provid unique combat intelligence (by observing the enemy from within their area), the point has usually been contested, without your presence.

What value are you for the team as a lone fighter…? None, even guerillas provide emergency Assaulter fire-power in a pinch, this class would have one low value function, and one low-value function only.

Planes are the ultimate spotters, anyway. Frankly, that label is not undeserved, historically speaking.

  • How does Saboteurs perform under the WW2 label…?

Not great. Perfidy, specifically the use of enemy uniforms during combat operations, was a recognized warcrime by almost everyone at the time.

What we have are mostly partisans (especially Soviet ones) sometimes doing this. The regular forces, of any country, would almost never do this.

The one major example people bring up of this being done is certain units under Otto Skorzeny during the Battle of the Bulge.

This is not the “big win” some think it is. Skorzeny himself was later tried at the Dachau trials but acquitted because the court accepted that wearing enemy uniforms for infiltration alone was not illegal if combat was conducted in proper uniform. The German troops during the Battle of the Bulge that did fight using US uniforms were few, vastly outnumbered by the other infiltrators, and they did so on their own initiative and without orders to do so.

Everyone used foreign uniforms for infiltration, intelligence gathering, or covert escape. Everyone also agreed that using them to fight was wrong. The current Saboteur class, explicitly meant to be used to decieve the enemy before ambushing them, entierly fails to represent historical reality.

  • How does Saboteurs perform under the Squad-Based label…?

Horribly.

A lone man is not a “squad”. Enlisted is not a Hero-Shooter, the gameplay loop - certainly the ground warfare part - should revolve around it’s squad based nature.

It is what seperates it from most other shooters out there, even ones based in WW2.

  • How does Saboteurs perform under the Combined-Arms label…?

This is the only metric where the class makes any ammount of sense…

The idea of covert intelligence, on its own, is appealing. Directing friendly airpower and tank/AT fire support is certainly a interesting aspect.

However, no single class should be the “designated spotter”. To truly represent Combined-Arms warfare, everyone should be cooperating in the locating and extraction or enemy forces.

So, in the end, this class fails once more, as it’s ultimately supurflous with the intended goal and design of the game.

9 Likes
34

Just for fun…

  • How does Saboteurs perform under the Shooter label…?

It has a gun. :+1:

3 Likes
35

We can use this as a knight ii

36

Unpopular opinion.

Class is… Not that bad.
While I agree with most points, else a bit exagerated.
I mean, truth be told, most wouldnt really care about the “ implications “.
It would be just like x or y equipment where shouldn’t be,
Due to being a game, its fine.

With that being said, the class is slowly growing on me, but, its out of place because it would belong more for a dedicated pve type of cooperation game, rather than a frontline based game. Rather, a dedicated gamemode to it.

Even if guerillas in their absurdity do what they do, sabuteours wouldnt be on the front Lines period.

Similar to “ death to spies “ type of game.
Which again, sort of cool, but not for enlisted in What it is.
Currently anyway, it can provide some interesting game play isolated on its own without being a detriment to anyone else.

And my biggest gripe. Should have been among the last classes to be implemented.

When we still have to rework current ones.
Such as the much more highly demandar jeeps, armored vehicles, maybe dedicated logistic for supplies on the battlefield with ammo and medkits, etc.

And worse yet, reacon abilities being locked behind one class.
And its the wrong one.

2 Likes
37

didnt know 120 people were still on the forum.

6 Likes
38

Are you really going to bring up the fact that it’s a war crime… seriously? this is a video game…

1 Like
39

And the SS doesn’t have uniforms either. There’s many things the developers avoid because that’s not something you want connected with your game

2 Likes
40

Pz 3 m squad is hitler youth… dicker max 6th army is a squad with a terrible background… let alone the moroccan gourmiers which were infamous.

Also… they do have their uniforms… SS camouflage… sure they might not have the black trench coats they are infamous for.

41

Not a single SS symbol is in the game. That is what I was referring to

1 Like
42

Yes, because uniform means symbol.

Thank you for clarifying however.

43

If you reread that perticular argument, you’ll realise that it’s not a moral argument, but a historical one.

The fact of the matter is that no regular military company at the time went into combat with the intention of commiting perfidy in order to ambush the enemy.

The devs propose to add a class with this specific purpose in mind. Pre-meditated perfidy is something that, universally, didn’t happen. The few people that did so were doing so on their own initiative (or, were decentralised Soviet partisans), building a class entierly around historical accidents is illogical.

There’s also a point to be made that this sort of infiltration just wouldn’t be done in a active warzone. Enlisted is not the game for espionage.

I get that you’re opposed to the topic, but you don’t have to missrepresent my argument because of it.

Though, yes, there is a single moral-ish argument being made in the original post, but that’s not what you responded to.

3 Likes
44

Yes i still think that’s disingenuous as we have prototypes that were never used historically… germans thought that shotguns (albeit not under geneva convention) were a war crime… does that mean we shouldn’t include the winchester?

I don’t think i was mis representing your argument either i’m just off put by the idea of the referencing laws pertaining to real life in this case the geneva convention as a reason to not include things in the game

I’m making these comments on my 15 at work so i’ll admit they don’t have the most thought… take with grain of salt and i perhaps might return

45

Rider Squads with Cars would a type of Squad much more beneficial to the game and type of gameplay of Enlisted

1 Like
46

Yes cuz riders 1 were so useful… Only way to make riders good is to make the game worse as a whole with annoyance. riders 2 is just apc.

47

But firearms were. That’s the distinction.

I’m sure that you are about as interested in policing what line-ups people bring as I am (not at all, that is).

People used guns, the shape of a WW2 gun is less interesting than the game trying to add a function to the game that just didn’t happen IRL…

Perfidy should not be a thing in game for the same reason as chemical warfare wasn’t a thing in WW2.

You can dig up a obscure Japanese attempt or whatever, but it shouldn’t be a thing in game anyway. Neither should this current Saboteur class.

  1. “The Germans thought”, well they weren’t, even on a objective level.

  2. It’s still not an argument I want to have… You don’t care, great, I’ll likely not convince you otherwise, so what’s the point?

If you get to call me disingenuous, then you were DEFINITELY missrepresenting my argument. No pulling of punches from you, so I’ll call it how it is.

1 Like
48

Why does this matter? Simply say it never happened to a large enough capacity to justify their inclusion… to label something as a war crime is purely a moral thing anyway.

This is why i think it’s really not necessary to mention this… you have valid points but needing to reinforce that it was a war crime is not something i understand.

OK they were a warcrime and not used perhaps because of that… maybe this is just a bulletin for reasons why they are unreasonable which is totally fair… maybe this is what you were going for however you started your statement off by saying it was recognized as a war crime

Seems to match up with saboteurs having the outfit mechanic and guerillas not.

Was wrong? So… if we’re not referencing morality… what gives? Why mention this? Why does the fact it was a war crime matter? Killing your fellow battle mates with a flamethrower would also be a war crime… but we can do that albeit teamkilling is restricted… so based on this that should be removed as it’s representing a war crime in reality and no one did it.

Neither does this game as a whole.

Once again… this is a game portraying ww2 with unique aspects such as weapons you might not see elsewhere… squad mechanics etc… many things in game were not done… however the majority of ones that i can think of are things you choose to do and not incentivized by the devs directly like this.

These aren’t regular military companies… they are singular soldiers operating seemingly under their own volition.

What does his trial have anything to do with this… is it to say it was ok and historical because they didn’t engage in combat while in uniform?

Coincidentally… while behind lines destroying strategic positions which is what his brigade did such as rallies and marking for your team you are disguised however when attacking it’s dropped! Seems like it’s accurately representing the fact they used them for infiltration and not for combat.

1 Like
49

It’s the explenation for why it wasn’t done, I thought that aught to be mentioned.

No.

This was a few people acting on their own accord, without sanction…

There’s also a great deal of debate how common this was, or if it was actually just post-war mythologization combined with US soldiers opening fire on suspensious men, who then opened fire in self-defense. We just don’t have a clean picture to tell accurately.

The Saboteur class would represent the deliberate attempt to perform perfidy, that you intentionally bring such personelle to perform this action. You’d put them in the line-up, with the intention to do this…

This does not bear out with the historical record.

See above.

Relying on hyperboly does not suit you.

You can point to certain prototypes that never saw combat trials.

That’s not “many” examples, that’s a list of weapons and vehicles.

What’s next, British nurses as medics…?

See above…

You do not seem to understand what the prupose of the class is… It has two functions…

Unless you are arguing for the removal of the ability to shoot whilst disguised…? I would be fine with that… That’d represent historical reality.

Anyway… With them as is… If they were not used for combat, which is historical fact, why add such units, with a disguise mechanic for ambushes, to this combat game…?