it was in my answer, 10 minutes ago.
gold fish memory?
you probably have that memory yourself, i dont see anywhere where you are NOT mentiong an SPG
yes we do when it comes to WW2 German tanks, the same way we categorise US tanks by US standards and Soviet tanks by Soviet standards.
by majority? by majority even T-34 and Sherman tank would be classified as heavy tanks during WW2.
tanks are NOT SPGs.
I was clear from the start on the matter.
I had I wanted to include them I would have said vehicle, as always.
Could you elaborate on that, Comrade Stierlitz?
Well, jumbo is also worthless vs Panther to be fair.
Been to a tank museum in Germany some years ago, standing next to a real Panther tank is terrifying.
The size difference between Tiger II and Panther is actually not that big, at least when standing next to them.
That being said - the classifications of heavy or medium tank are arbitrary and if anything depending on military doctrine of each country.
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If Soviets classified the Tiger as a plane it still would be a tank - because thats what it was designed to be.
Other countries dont matter.
Hungarian classification: 75mm cannon or bigger → heavy tank.
Japanese, Spanish and Italian classification: more than ~25 tonnes → heavy tank.
France, Britain and Romania used their own role based classification which cant really categorise the Panther, T-34 and Sherman well.
Im not exactly sure what other nations used but probably a the same or a mix of these 3.
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True, but doesn’t change the fact that the Jumbo is better than KV-1 Zis 5
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because German tanks are welded, not cast.
Welding together many armour plates takes precious time so welding as few plates as possible makes production faster which is why Panther is huge.
Ironically it was more economical for Germany to build Panthers than Panzer IVs.
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KV-1 (zis-5) still has a higher velocity cannon and APCR shells (125mm pen) which not enough against Tiger II H or Hori but enough against any Axis and Japanese BR3-4 tank. The same can not be said about Jumbo which struggles against the Panther and Tiger H1.
So again, its in the same situation as heavy tank, its OP in downtier but outclassed in uptier.
Puting KV-1 zis-5 would make a nightmare for BR2-3 matches and OP in BR3-4.
Wait
So what round does it have now? I am confused
With all due respect, but what the hell is a “Medium tank layout”? I don’t mean to be rude, but most german tanks 1943-44 have the same layout, no matter if it’s a heavy or a medium.
Armor scheme of mediums is also imostly not true., since it’s armor is almost twice as thick as the T-34s, while maintaining a good angle.
Of course, the side armor is weak, but most of the time an enemy sees your flat side armor you’re dead anyway.
And the gun is a ‘medium’ only in calibre, which doesn’t really mean much.
It’s a heavy tank in the sense that it’s fat, has great armor, survivability against other tanks, cannon that can fight other heavies.
I also think the ZiS KV should stay in BR 4, but maybe the panther is not a BR 4 tank?
It has both APHE and APCR against tanks.
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Well ima gonna mention You that for some reason the armor of the tanks on the shooting range is kinda different from the Game which is cursed
So if You can give US a real Match material it would prove your point
Panther has issues for sure, but its pure frontal armor and firepower are quite fit for BR5 to be honest.
I like that Panthers are very slow and sluggish - seems thematically fitting because they were terribly unreliable.
I was playing with the thought of the devs removing Panthers top mounted MG - considering Panther had bad infantry support capabilities, that would give more reasons to pick Tiger H1 over Panther.
Has both AP and APCR at the same time.
He is just dishonest.
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Not since IS-1, SU-85M, M36 Jackson and Chi-Ri has been moved/added to BR4.
But when M4A2w76 was still BR5, the argument was reasonable.
But the reason is already there: Tiger H1 has far better HE shells and thicker armour.
Okay, so if you been listening, you know that German tanks are welded and welding takes a lot of time of trained work force, welding together fewer plates makes production faster.
Most people have no idea but Panther was faster to produce than the Panzer IV.
Now its big and heavy because it was designed with production speed in mind only, not resource efficency like the Panzer IV (lots of armour plates to use as few steel as possible).
Layout was probably not the best word since all modern tanks with 3 men turret follow about the same layout to this day.
Role and characterisitics is the real key here.
Panther does have heavy tank like frontal armour, but thats it.
Its side armour was only thick enough to stop Soviet AT rifles.
Its top and bottom armour are also very thin, while most heavy tanks have very thick top, side and bottom armour.
Its cannon is way too light even by 1943 German standards to be considered a heavy tank and has less punch, despite Panther having slightly higher pen, Tiger I crews knocked out Allied tanks, guns and pill boxes twice further than Panther’s range.
In fact the Panther was deployed in normal Panzer regiments instead of heavy tank battalions, like the Tigers.
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i never said it did not have APCR, just show it to me where i said it.
Bro is comparing the garbage Chi Ri to Panther lol