(YouTube video description contains primary source documents)
CONTEXT: The IS-2’s 122mm D-25T cannon firing APHE BR-471 (or APHEBC BR-471B, Peter Samsonov of Tank Archives calls the 471 a “pointed” shell despite the 471B being the capped variant, timestamp 3:19) was capable of penetrating the upper frontal plate of the Tiger II at shell velocities corresponding to 200m range (timestamp 4:16).
IN-GAME: I think it’s clear to many players that the Tiger II has an inherent advantage over the IS-2 1944. Using this historical context, we can allow the IS-2’s 122mm D-25T to barely penetrate the UFP of both Tiger IIs. Whether it’s an adjustment to the shell’s penetration relative to an armor plate’s angle, how much the explosive filler adds to penetration post-kinetic penetration value, or some other means, this can help balance these two vehicles out in combat. While both vehicles would now be vulnerable to each other by the same relative armor area (assuming no angling), the Tiger II still has a much faster reload advantage, so there is no justifiable argument that this would tip the scales and make the IS-2 overpowered.
Would you like to see the 122mm D-25T’s lethality against the Tiger II UFP increase to historical levels?
Bring it up on the WT forums first if you want caracteristics for shells changed.
As for the 122 beeing able to front pen the KT UFP it might just boil down to armor quality issues degrading the armor and nothing with the 122mm shells. So artificially buffing changing the 122mm should not be the solution.
That would be perfect if it happens. I actually came across this when I was researching armor test data of the Tiger 2 with Soviet sources.
Putting aside the shortage of rare metals on Germany’s part, the 122mm gun genuinely had the capability to deal with it. In reality, a heavy projectile flying at that speed alone could give tank crew severe concussions and render them combat ineffective, let alone an armor-piercing shell packed with explosive filler.
The big difference between the game and real life is this: in-game, if a shot can’t penetrate, the system simply deals zero damage at all. In reality, even the 122mm HE round could strip off outer plating and concuss or kill the driver and co-driver inside.
If the game adjusted it that way, it’d be great. The 122mm wouldn’t be completely helpless against the Tiger 2 anymore.
We’ll probably have to wait for War Thunder to update its mechanics first though. For now, let’s just push the vote. I think most players would be in favor.
The key is how many people actually vote. I’m gonna copy the poll link, save it in my bookmarks, and keep sharing it to get more votes over time.
There is no photographic evidence that any Tiger II would have ever been frontally penetrated…
Tank Archives is very nice for researching rare Soviet tanks and I have read countless articles from the site, but its so unfathomably biased that its not a source to be used for balance suggestions.
Well thats true there no Tiger II frontally penned and yet there is more Tigers II captured then Tigers I for a reason extreme mechanical unreliability and severe fuel shortages… just remember
Like abandon it specially if you go on a speed above 20hm/h xD Its so over engineered and it burns like 500 liters per 100 km on road I mean even the Abrams is like 270 liters… xD
First yak9k, then su9, now this.
This is just what we need. More “historical” buffs to Soviet.
I don’t see anyone asking for nerfing t50, t34, kv1, jumbo, super pershing armour though.
If you really want to fabricate stats, perhaps Japanese armours below BR5 deserves more than any faction.
So the IS-2 shouldn’t be able to penetrate the King Tiger frontally - there’s no historically recorded confirmation of it. Soviet test range firings can’t count as evidence, because they shot the armor multiple times with various guns, including super-large calibers, and under those conditions, what armor wouldn’t crack? Besides, in reality, King Tigers and IS-2s hardly ever met in combat; only a handful of such cases are recorded. And in those engagements, not once was a King Tiger penetration documented - frontally or anywhere else. Usually, HE shells knocked out the suspension, the tank lost mobility, and the crew blew it up. That’s not the same as a frontal penetration. The source you cited is dubious. The D-25T could only penetrate a King Tiger with post-war shells, which shouldn’t be in our game - I’m against it.
I understand the point, and it would be acceptable if there were a balance between the USSR and Japan beforehand. Remember that Germany is no longer the only enemy facing the Soviets, and the Soviets in general have received quite a few upgrades in recent months. This would make the Soviets stronger, but is it really necessary? Wouldn’t it simply create more imbalance in the game and cause more people to quit?
By the way, a small detail that has always intrigued me: should we say USSR and not Russia? The Germans continued to call the USSR Russia; this is most noticeable in the designations of captured weapons.
That’s sophistry, and it in no way proves the possibility of a frontal penetration of a King Tiger by Soviet tanks. For starters, it was an ambush — so it was hardly a head-on frontal engagement, that’s point one. Point two: the crews abandoning their vehicles does not mean they suffered frontal penetrations. In that engagement, essentially broken-down tanks were abandoned, and I highly doubt those breakdowns had anything to do with a frontal penetration, lol.
Bring some more valid proof with documentary evidence of a frontal armor penetration.
That would be fantastic, but remember that this forum community wouldn’t allow it. If you think about it, the Tiger II has a penetration depth of 237 mm at 90°, but that claim only applies to selected batches (Wa Prüf 1 stated this in their reports). Penetration with regular ammunition was reduced by 10%, which would give around 213 mm at 90° (which is why it couldn’t penetrate its own turret at more than 450 meters).
Furthermore, the Ferdinand’s 8.8 mm gun couldn’t penetrate the frontal armor of a Panther, which is 85 mm at 55° at 500 meters. It shouldn’t even accidentally penetrate the frontal armor of an IS-2 M1944 (which in the Enlisted version was given 90 mm of frontal armor instead of 100 mm—clear Soviet bias, right?). The 122 mm gun should be capable of penetrating the turret of the… Tiger II at a long distance and the front of the chassis at close range, a good idea, but in this forum there are many people whose main source of information is perhaps Wikipedia, but I do support you.
