(Survey) BR5 Soviet Automatic Rifle Choice

Well, if we were not shafted by the BR system, and if we had the normal AVT 40 (10) variant, then

AVS 36 (15) would be ok in limited numbers for Soviet Japanese 1939 combat, winter war 1939-40 and initial Barbarossa fighting (Minsk, Smolensk, Moscow).

AVT 40 (10) would be ok in limited numbers for 1942-1943 scenarios (Stalingrad, Rzhev), but they were cancelled and converted to SVTs after mid 1943 (Kursk).

AVT 40 (15) and AVT 40 (20) were nothing but failed experimental batches.

Historical way is evidence, not recalling memories which sometimes can fail any one of us.

“I have evidence but I won’t show them” is definitely the way to go :+1:t2:

Since I know your relation to a sources - it will be like this for sure

No, thats just a point of view for some forum guy. Its not true

Ask forum guys for souces before trust - they just aint have anything to prove

Why you pretend you know something? Make sure - your words have some base, not just a thoughts

– There is an opinion that a Soviet soldier is such an “expendable material”, illiterate, incapable of independent combat operations. You caught the 43rd and 44th year. What is your impression?

Well, how can I say… I was drafted into the airborne division, they didn’t teach me much. In my opinion, everyone was inexperienced. We knew the war only from the stories of the old men - Voroshilov, Budyonny. They say there were not enough rifles at the front. I had a Simonov machine gun, ABC

on the Sredny Peninsula… - Its a far North
They brought us neat, large-print books on good paper: little Russian-German phrasebooks with drawings of outdated German T-III and T-IV tanks. They sent posters with silhouettes of German planes and navy ships. There were also silhouettes of our then newest Pe-2 and MiG aircraft. New gas masks, RGD grenades, new-shaped helmets, masks, Simonov self-loading rifles, machine guns, cartridges, and many shells were delivered to us for our venerable students from the Peter the Great tsarist factory. We delivered a lot of groceries.

So why you write here put erroneous statements passing them off as the truth? Or did all these veterans make a mistake at the same time? I won’t be surprised, now I’ll know.

On February 23, 1942, I was urgently recalled back to the Training Squad, but not to the Weapons School, but to the Communications School.
Once, an enemy boat appeared from Peterhof. He obviously wanted to pin us down, but we fought him off. The German planes were also not allowed to turn around much. We had automatic weapons and anti-tank rifles on our boats. We also fired planes directly from the boats. I went on the “six”. There were eight of us on board: a foreman, an assistant, and the rest were rowers. All are armed with 15-charge Simonov automatic rifles (ABC) and 10-charge SVT. You could say they were armed to the teeth. We sailors loved these rifles, but when I got to Estonia, I saw that the infantrymen were abandoning them for some reason. But it all depended on the command. I have already told you that they wanted to send me to a penal company because I did not lubricate my automatic rifle. After all, if you lubricate the shutter, and some kind of grain of sand gets there, then the shutter does not work. And so, because I ordered my people not to lubricate anyone, they wanted to send me to the penalty area. But on the other hand, our weapons always fired flawlessly, without delay. Nobody’s ever had anything stuck. And it’s the same in winter. If the shutter is lubricated, it does not work. And when you wash it with gasoline, kerosene or turpentine so that there are no liquid solidifying substances in it, it works perfectly. Armor-piercing incendiary bullets with a red-black bullet tip and tracer bullets with a green tip were used for shooting.

One big collective mistake, as Vk says

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Which of these statements are erroneous?

  1. AVS 36 was withdrawn from service in 1940 due to reliability issues.

  2. The Red Army never adopted 15/20 round magazines for AVT 40 into service as standard issue – they were only experimental.

  3. It is highly unlikely and close to improbable that any red army squad was equipped with AVS/AVT after 1943.

I already mentioned false statements you write here - don’t pretend. Also I ain’t seen a one document from ya

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So none if them are erroneous.

Thank you for a clear answer.

I thought you hope about history but in fact another forum guy… sad

You like someone put your nose to your mistakes - so here it is. Why you write it?

Sources?

Documentary Evidence for AVS-36

  • NKO Order on Withdrawal (1941):
    The AVS-36 was officially discontinued in 1940 and withdrawn from frontline units by 1941 due to unreliability (jamming, sensitivity to dirt). Surviving rifles were transferred to training units or rear garrisons .
  • Weapon Loss Reports (1942–1943):
    Central Archives of the Ministry of Defense (TsAMO, Fond 81, Opis 12038) show AVS-36 losses recorded only until 1941. For example, a March 1942 report from the 112th Rifle Division states: “No AVS-36 rifles remain; replaced by SVT-40” .
  • 1944 TO&E (Table of Organization & Equipment):
    Rifle Regiment TO&E No. 04/501 (effective 1943) lists no AVS-36. Standard arms: PPSh/PPS (108 units), SVT-40 (40 units), Mosin-Nagant rifles (1,200 units) .

2. Documentary Evidence for AVT-40

  • GAU KA Order No. 0270 (21 July 1943):
    Banned automatic fire for the AVT-40 due to critical flaws: “Automatic fire causes bolt destruction, barrel warping, and stock breakage. Use only in semi-auto mode” .
  • GKO Decree No. 3531ss (September 1942):
    Halted AVT-40 production in favor of the SVT-40. Factory No. 314 (Mednogorsk) retooled for SVT-40 production; existing AVT-40s were converted to SVT-40s .
  • Inspection Report of the 3rd Shock Army (January 1945):
    TsAMO (F. 81, Op. 12038, File 220, Page 45) notes: “No Tokarev automatic rifles (AVT) in army units. Isolated SVT-40s used by snipers” .

3. Weapon Inventory Statistics (1944–1945)
Data from GAU reports (TsAMO F. 81, Op. 12038):

Weapon Type Qty per Rifle Division Notes
AVS-36 0 Withdrawn by 1942
AVT-40 0 Replaced by SVT-40
SVT-40 200–300 Main semi-auto rifle
PPSh/PPS 1,500–2,000 Standard SMG

4. Why They Were Absent

  • Technical Failures:
    AVS-36 deemed “obsolete” (GAU Report #198, 15.03.1942); AVT-40 declared “hazardous” (Kubinka Proving Ground Act #142, June 1943) .
  • Logistical Streamlining:
    NKO Order No. 0391 (10.05.1943) restricted frontline arms to PPSh, SVT-40, and Mosin-Nagants. Exotic systems (incl. AVS/AVT) were withdrawn .

Documents
You can access digitized archives via these official platforms:

  1. “Pamyat Naroda” (Memory of the Nation):

    • Search for:
      • GKO Decree No. 3531сс (AVT-40 discontinuation).
      • GAU Order No. 0270 (ban on AVT-40 auto fire).
      • TO&E No. 04/501 (rifle regiment structure).
    • Link: pamyat-naroda.ru
  2. TsAMO Digital Archive:

    • Fond 81 (GAU), Opis 12038: Files 123–234 (divisional weapon reports).
    • File 220, Page 45: 3rd Shock Army inspection (1945).
    • Link: tsamo.garchive.ru
  3. RGASPI (Russian State Archive of Socio-Political History):

    • Fond 644 (GKO), Opis 1: Documents #3520–3550 (arms production decrees).

Conclusion:

  1. No AVS-36 in 1944–1945: Withdrawn by 1942.
  2. No AVT-40 in 1944–1945: Banned from auto fire (1943), converted to SVT-40s.
  3. Primary sources confirm: SVT-40, PPSh, and Mosin-Nagants dominated late-war inventories.
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Maybe you can bring a links of some documents not just ask GPT? Or its so hard enough?

But you didn’t surprise me with sources, you just have not any of it. There is papers.

I bring you a lot of memories of people in quite different regiments who use it. You just show gpt prompt. I ain’t surprised tbh

I can’t give you any more evidence than that dinosaurs also didn’t fight reptioloids on Mars in 5000 B.C.

If you strongly believe that Soviet troops were issued AVS, AVT 10/15/20 in 1944-45, it’s your duty to provide documents lol

I’ll wait for those Tables of Organization and Equipment

Memories is a historical sourse. You can wait whatever you want - but you ain’t show nothing you talk about.

Who do you think you are not trust multiple veteran memories? I know the answer. Anybody here I suppose

And also if you pretend to be somebody who cares about historical accuracy try to read about history sources for a while

And yes, I still waiting for even one document from you

The burden of proof lies with the one who asserts, not with the one who denies.

Memoirs are not documents, they can be biased, distorted, just misremembered.

I’m still waiting for a single documented evidence of AVS/AVT issue to troops post 1943.

Until then, they were not.

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You don’t trust veterans of Great Patriotic war. Who are you to speak with? :clown_face:

I trust evidence.

Just because my grandpa said he used AK-47 in 1941, doesn’t mean he’s right.

So, any factual evidence to prove your claim?

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