Solutions for grey zone tank problem

[BodyBagger111]

Yes, you must be correct. The proper tactic for a tank is to drive straight to the cap point and get as close to the enemy infantry as possible so they can quickly and easily blow up the tank with a grenade, thus making them happy and this problem will go away. Damn, you nailed it. A new tanking tactic. Congratulations!

Okay, now that I’m done with my sarcasm… you are correct, however, about flanking in this game: You can’t flank properly. The play zone is too small and the gray zone is too large. And the terrain is terrible when using vehicles, especially with all the clutter on the field. So yes, I would prefer if the gray zone would be eliminated from the game. But gray zone tanks are a function of the vehicle: they are meant to be used at range most of the time—not in or near the cap zone (although there are exceptions). There are plenty of ways to deal with them (which are mentioned in previous posts). Sometimes it is difficult or next to impossible—but it’s never impossible.

[Admiral_Wenli]

@BodyBagger111

There are plenty of ways to deal with them (which are mentioned in previous posts). Sometimes it is difficult or next to impossible—but it’s never impossible.

I think for the sake of balance, there has ought to be a solution brought forward other than just saying its technically possible.

Because as much as its technically possible, that doesnt help much for newer players who will likely not have the tools on hand to deal with said tanks.

If a new player is grinding out his new unlocked squads, hes going to have to suffer from a lack of countermeasures, and sure he has a tank or plane in his lineup, but often they neither know how to bomb accurately, nor can spot and kill the keyholing tank before being killed by said tank while in their own tank, (christ thats a lot of tank).

And yes in that case there is an argument to be made for “just git gud”, thats not going to help player retention, thats not going to help the game grow.

@robihr

@xXWaterXx

It is, because it eliminates the possibility of flanking altogether. Infantries or tanks alike.

infantry and tanks can both destroy grey zone tank.

I might be dumb here, but I fail to see how Infantry who cant penetrate its armour would be able to kill it.

As for a tank, sure its fine if its just spawn camping and you in theory at least have a chance of killing it, assuming your team is actually marking it. But if its keyholing onto a cap point, how do you kill it with a tank then, because to get a shot on it, you have to drive onto the cap point, you know the one argument for grey zone tanks I see brought up again and again,

“Well realistically tanks would sit back and act as fire support instead of moving with the infantry and act as armoured cover”

or something to that effect.

@robihr

@xXWaterXx

In the meantime, the said tank (TG2 or soviet IS2), TG2 in particular because it has higher firing rate and better armor than all its peers, can sit in the safety of greyzone and keep on hurling HE or AP at the opponent.

even on modes without grey zone(train), people were complaining about tanks. people are complaining about not being able to throw det pack which is easy way to kill tanks, not cause of grey zone.

Maybe its just me then, because I dont see much of that, I see complaints about how tanks sitting in the grey zone run a low risk, high reward strategy is a possibly unfair manner.

How ever I do feel a bit of an agreement here with you about the det pack. Unless its a light vehicle, I think the det pack/TNT charge should have to be thrown/places a bit more carefully, maybe reducing the radius of damage a bit, focusing it a bit more.

ie, throwing a det pack just casually to the side of a tank will blow off applique armour and throw the track, To get a kill with it, you should be aiming for the engine deck, roof armour or turret ring.

@robihr

@xXWaterXx

Try to play allied on br5 and find out about it for yourself.

all faction will get high BR AT gun in near future and there have already been suggestions to get 200+mm penetration AT rocket launcher for japan and allies.

Soon TM

Until its here, the issue persists, and probably wont be here for a while.

[robihr]

@Admiral_Wenli

I might be dumb here, but I fail to see how Infantry who cant penetrate its armour would be able to kill it.

like i said if said faction lacks tools for that, then buff tools. AT guns will get high caliber version in next few updates and people have been suggesting either high velocity rocket for bazooka, m20 or just panzerfaust for both us and japan. soviets and germans dont have any problem penetrating even heaviest tanks from front.

@Admiral_Wenli

assuming your team is actually marking it.

or you can actually remember its position and mark it yourself when needed.

@Admiral_Wenli

But if its keyholing onto a cap point, how do you kill it with a tank then, because to get a shot on it, you have to drive onto the cap point, you know the one argument for grey zone tanks I see brought up again and again,

idk what you mean by keyholing, but most grey zone tanks are easy to kill with another tank.

@Admiral_Wenli

Maybe its just me then, because I dont see much of that, I see complaints about how tanks sitting in the grey zone run a low risk, high reward strategy is a possibly unfair manner.

why is that same argument not applied to planes? they fire rockets/drop bombs at even larger distances than tanks. yet somehow planes are accepted for same strategy, but grey zone tanks arent.

[Admiral_Wenli]

@robihr

@Admiral_Wenli

I might be dumb here, but I fail to see how Infantry who cant penetrate its armour would be able to kill it.

like i said if said faction lacks tools for that, then buff tools. AT guns will get high caliber version in next few updates and people have been suggesting either high velocity rocket for bazooka, m20 or just panzerfaust for both us and japan. soviets and germans dont have any problem penetrating even heaviest tanks from front.

Well again, Soon TM

Still doesnt mean Infantry will be able to have any reliable chance of killing it, sure its better than nothing but that doesnt make it a solution.

@robihr

@Admiral_Wenli

assuming your team is actually marking it.

or you can actually remember its position and mark it yourself when needed.

Ah yeah, and Im sure the enemy tank, camping the spawn will give me the seconds I need to track onto his exact position and get a shot through his armour, assuming I can even pen his armour, or if I can, can actually kill him because how under powered solid shot it.

@robihr

@Admiral_Wenli

But if its keyholing onto a cap point, how do you kill it with a tank then, because to get a shot on it, you have to drive onto the cap point, you know the one argument for grey zone tanks I see brought up again and again,

idk what you mean by keyholing, but most grey zone tanks are easy to kill with another tank.

So keyholing is a common FPS term, its basically camping a specific spot through a small gap making return fire near impossible. Especially if hes going to be given the first shot. Even worse in tanks when stopping the fire against such an enemy is near certain death.

You can think of it like the tank is an archer shooting through an arrow slit during a castle siege, the chances of an enemy archer accurately returning fire through that arrow slit as next to 0.

So the issue here to give you an example, say the map is in a valley or has a hill to one side, and because of how the terrain is formed, the tank can camp at the edge of the map with a shot on the point and maybe a bit in front of it, and just lob HE with impunity.

Any infantry trying to fire off a RPG of any type has next to no chance of even lining up a shot, this is just assuming by some miracle it will both penetrate it and kill it.

Any tanks that push up to deal with it, will likely be killed by enemy infantry, and even assuming it wasnt by some miracle, the chances are heavily in favour of the grey zone tank which is stopped and ready to fire, vs the enemy tank which is relying on memory and will need about 5 seconds at least to stop the tank, get the gun on target and fire.

@robihr

@Admiral_Wenli

Maybe its just me then, because I dont see much of that, I see complaints about how tanks sitting in the grey zone run a low risk, high reward strategy is a possibly unfair manner.

why is that same argument not applied to planes? they fire rockets/drop bombs at even larger distances than tanks. yet somehow planes are accepted for same strategy, but grey zone tanks arent.

This is a surprisingly simple one.

• Planes are far more inaccurate at range, not to mention issues with rendering and target acquisition at range.

• Planes ammo capacity is far smaller, and its rearm time isnt that different from a tank’s.

• Planes are far easier to kill than a tank hidden behind a hill, I mean I’m sure you know how easy it is to setup an AA, literally anywhere on the map to kill one. That or just spawn a fighter on its 6, thats not something you can do against a tank. To kill a tank you need to be at an exact spot, in line of fire of the enemy and you need the crucial time to setup to kill it before it kills you.

• The plane is always visible, you hear it before you see it, and there is always the hard counter to bombs, which is just hitting the deck.

[robihr]

@Admiral_Wenli

Still doesnt mean Infantry will be able to have any reliable chance of killing it, sure its better than nothing but that doesnt make it a solution.

tanks dont need to be easy to kill with infantry. infantry just needs to have tools to kill them whether they are reliable or unreliable.

@Admiral_Wenli

Ah yeah, and Im sure the enemy tank, camping the spawn will give me the seconds I need to track onto his exact position and get a shot through his armour, assuming I can even pen his armour, or if I can, can actually kill him because how under powered solid shot it.

well you have 5 second spawn protection, not to mention he could be shooting infantry and have HE loaded giving you 10+ seconds to find him and kill him. also i have previously mention(idk if in this topic or not) that all infantry/spawn points shouldnt be visible from enemy playable zone.

@Admiral_Wenli

So keyholing is a common FPS term

no ti is not. google returns this

and most of them are in regards to ammo from which definition is this

In firearms and ammunition, “keyholing” refers to a phenomenon where bullets fail to stabilize during flight, resulting in them hitting the target at an angle instead of head-on, with the front of the bullet. This is generally undesired as it reduces the accuracy and the effectiveness of the bullet.

also wiktionary gives this

@Admiral_Wenli

its basically camping a specific spot through a small gap making return fire near impossible. Especially if hes going to be given the first shot. Even worse in tanks when stopping the fire against such an enemy is near certain death.

i really cant think of any positions where you can be safe and still provide effective fire on cap or spawn on most maps. you are welcome to prove me wrong.

@Admiral_Wenli

So the issue here to give you an example, say the map is in a valley or has a hill to one side, and because of how the terrain is formed, the tank can camp at the edge of the map with a shot on the point and maybe a bit in front of it, and just lob HE with impunity.

give me concrete example on any map where tank can effectively keyhole and spam HE on cap while destroying majority of players there.

@Admiral_Wenli

Planes are far more inaccurate at range, not to mention issues with rendering and target acquisition at range.

they are absolutely accurate. you can fire rockets that will relatively accurately hit target from 1000m and you can drop bomb from 200-300m that will hit tank accurately.

@Admiral_Wenli

Planes ammo capacity is far smaller, and its rearm time isnt that different from a tank’s.

yeah… planes are totally harmless. way more harmless than tanks…
here is recent screenshot. most of the kills are from p47.

Spoiler

@Admiral_Wenli

Planes are far easier to kill than a tank hidden behind a hill

tank are also easy to kill… if tanks are hidden behind the hill, then you should just ignore them cause they provide no threat.

[Admiral_Wenli]

Im not going to quote test here and ill just address via bullet points because I think our messages are getting a bit too long for a forum.

Youve asked for examples of maps where this camping is possible, imma be honest, I have no clue of what the map names actually are, I used my own made up names, dunno why, just is but ill describe them instead. But 2 maps come instantly to mind

• The first that comes to mind which ive suffered on a fair few times now, there is 2 spots on the second flag, the second flag is located in a trench line in the middle of a forested area jsut before a village, the first flag is located in a trench line dominated by a concrete bunker in the middle of it with lots of tank traps in front of said trench line. Snow map.
  For context the only times I lose on this map is when a gray zone tank camps the second flag, there is two main spots, one on the right of the attacking direction, perpendicular to the line of attack, just to the right(attacker) or left(defender) of a destroyed convoy.
  Ive seen this spot used by a pak 40 before, which while annoying I was able to defeat. But the issue with the first spot here is when a tank with any sort of armour, especially when I met one using that spot when the best weapon I had was an anti tank rifle, which I know you going to discount and jsut go “should have brought better weapons” I didnt have better weapons at the time, and to get a shot at the tank while in my own tank I would have to break through at least one enemy infantry squad point blank and then work my way through wreckage while he would see my marked tank approach before I even got near. There is actually another spot here, by locating your tank on the opposite side in the village entrance, you can get a good shot on both the point and the approaches to it. Now this isnt as bad as this could be fixed by simply adding a second default spawn to the attackers, but it does stand out as at BR1 germans, facing a KV-1 in that spot, was soul crushing, especially since it was a near perfect first assault. If we place a new player there, theres a solid chance people I know would refuse to touch the game again because of an experience like that.

• The other spot that comes to mind is the pacfic map, where you assault a circle of trench’s with a beach on the left for defenders and a mountain on the left for attackers.
  This is surprisingly an inverse of the first one, as while a tank located up there is an issue, is one that can be beaten assuming you have a tank or engineer/at squad sufficiently levelled up.
  But the issue is actually an enemy engineering squad can locate up there and just keep building AT guns and raining down HE on the first two points. And here you could say, just git gud and shoot the AT gun, there is some funny angles involved here, but mainly there is jsut a lot of foliage there which can make it hard to identify the target before it destroys you. This can be a real issue if your playing as low tier Japanese, or to a lesser degree high tier Japanese.
  Honestly I have a lot of issues with that map, but this one is just a frustrating one.

A lot of your argument seems to revolve around you using your own spawn protection, Perhaps ive made a mistake then and havent made myself clear. The spots I take issue with arent the ones spawn camping, ive rarely been spawn camped, and certainly not for a long period of time. The spots im on about are used by defenders to completely deny access to a point. These spots are unreachable unless you assail into behind the enemy battle line while also providing unimpeded sightlines onto the objective effectively denying either any support onto the objective via covering fire/etc or completely denying access to the point.

It is worth noting, even if you kill the grey zone tank here, it has often done enough damage already to have lost you the match, causing both directly and indirectly far more tickets than your team can tend to afford.

As for you argument against the term keyholing, first result when I searched “keyholing meaning in games” brought it up. Its a term I’ve heard used both internationally and all sorts of games from arma to siege. I did see a lot of unrelated searches comes up though so perhaps that confused you. Its a phrase ive heard for the longest time and its a phrase ive used for the longest time though. Did learn it has its modern roots in the CS community though while googling it though.

Another doing I might have misrepresented there is, I’m not saying killing tanks should be easy, but for the sake of balance in the game, it shouldnt be a mountain of a task.

Onto planes now. For a start, 200-300m in a plane may as well be knife fighting range, Even at 1000m its an easy target for AA. Like when I’m in a plane, my normal engagement range is 800m max, 200m min.

Didnt say planes arent deadly, nor am I doubting your skills as a pilot, but the key difference is the tank can remain on station for far longer than the planes, it can lay down more deadly fire, often killing similar amounts with 1 HE round as to most bomb drops I see.

Tanks in the open are easy to kill if you have the drop yes, if not its a different story, the issue here is the tanks not in the open though. Like I’m surprised you havent seen what I’m talking about, 1 in 3 matches end because of a tank laying in a grey zone spot normally. Its a common enough occurrence that im genuinely surprised you havent seen tanks hiding behind the hills to shoot the point.
And despite that, that still doesnt take away from the original point that aircraft are much easier to kill, as to kill a tank, even in the open you have to get a good enough weapon into a good enough spot first, you can kill a plane from any area with at least a half decent view of the sky.

Sorry for not adding pictures but I genuinely cant be arsed to open up paint and draw red circles for you.

[robihr]

@Admiral_Wenli

For context the only times I lose on this map is when a gray zone tank camps the second flag, there is two main spots, one on the right of the attacking direction, perpendicular to the line of attack, just to the right(attacker) or left(defender) of a destroyed convoy.

fortified district? the one with fog?

only problem with killing tanks on this map is cause of shit visibility when there is fog. otherwise they are easy to kill cause you have pak40, bazooka/grb, AT rifles(depending on tank)

@Admiral_Wenli

but it does stand out as at BR1 germans, facing a KV-1 in that spot

well BR1 tank always sucks against BR3 tank. nothing to do with grey zone.

@Admiral_Wenli

This is surprisingly an inverse of the first one, as while a tank located up there is an issue, is one that can be beaten assuming you have a tank or engineer/at squad sufficiently levelled up.

so not a problem?

@Admiral_Wenli

But the issue is actually an enemy engineering squad can locate up there and just keep building AT guns and raining down HE on the first two points. And here you could say, just git gud and shoot the AT gun, there is some funny angles involved here, but mainly there is jsut a lot of foliage there which can make it hard to identify the target before it destroys you. This can be a real issue if your playing as low tier Japanese, or to a lesser degree high tier Japanese.

you can easily counter engineers with sniper which you get from BR1. also soldiers when shooting AT gun almost always have their head peeking out that you can snipe.

@Admiral_Wenli

These spots are unreachable unless you assail into behind the enemy battle line while also providing unimpeded sightlines onto the objective effectively denying either any support onto the objective via covering fire/etc or completely denying access to the point.

like i said before, if you can see enemy, you can kill it with ranged AT solutions. if enemy tank is providing cover over large zone, then it is also vulnerable to large zone. if enemy is providing cover to narrow zone then it is easy to bypass/ignore it, but even then it is possible to destroy it(e.g. plane).

@Admiral_Wenli

As for you argument against the term keyholing, first result when I searched “keyholing meaning in games” brought it up. Its a term I’ve heard used both internationally and all sorts of games from arma to siege. I did see a lot of unrelated searches comes up though so perhaps that confused you. Its a phrase ive heard for the longest time and its a phrase ive used for the longest time though. Did learn it has its modern roots in the CS community though while googling it though.

first and only result is from battlefront forum(or combat mission series of games) from 20 years ago. this term is niche at best and nowhere near as common as you said. next 5 pages have no mention about it.

@Admiral_Wenli

For a start, 200-300m in a plane may as well be knife fighting range

still farther than tank

@Admiral_Wenli

Tanks in the open are easy to kill if you have the drop yes, if not its a different story, the issue here is the tanks not in the open though.

unless tanks are in the building, they are an easy target for any dive bomber. i manage to dive bomb even with fw190 d12(yeah i am masochist) on berlin vs is2 with 50kg and 250kg bombs, not to mention on other maps that are much clearer. also i have been killing loads of KT and is2 with ofenrohr/panzerfaust on berlin and stalingrad maps.

@Admiral_Wenli

Its a common enough occurrence that im genuinely surprised you havent seen tanks hiding behind the hills to shoot the point.

i usually kill 2-10 vehicles per game, majority of them tanks cause i play mostly infantry. there is maybe 1 tank in 30 games that is such a problem that i need to take out tank or plane to kill it cause i cant kill it with AT rocket launcher or AT gun or it is simply so ineffective that i dont even need to bother with killing it.

[Admiral_Wenli]

Might be the same map but a different area, its a shame there isnt just an easy to access set of all the maps. Don’t recall a heavy fog effect at all, maybe in the far distance, but not far enough that id worry about it.

Yeah it was more a standout moment that I will continue to remember, and the fact it can happen, combining a BR1 uptier into BR3 is shit to begin with, but grey zoning in an already near invincible tank at that BR was horrific, this is the reality new players have to face, I cant stress this enough, this is the type of content that will drive new players away in droves.

Snipers are great, but since there engineers could be raining down fire from 300m offering maybe not even a pixel for you to hit at that range, also didnt have them in the lineup as I’m still grinding all the squads which is semi mandatory. Only so much you can bring with 4 slots.

Ranged AT cant penetrate those tanks, I think its a bug maybe tbh, since im non penning even pz3s at range with a M1 bazooka. But stuff like the pz 4 J are just monstrous. Even a 6 pounder gun someone non pens on that tank for some reason when, as far as I’m aware, that at pretty much at all angles it should be slicing through it like butter.

As for keyholing being niche, I’m genuinely surprised, Anyone into these types of games seems to have known it as I’ve spoke to them. Like at these are people from all over, some with very different playstyles and different game preferences. The more ya know I guess, what would you call it then?

Doesn’t matter if its technically further if its still an easier target. I mean until AA guns lose the aim radicle at least, then id concede the point. But until then, planes are just flying RP piñatas.

Again not doubting your skill with a bomb, but a 250kg bomb is a big bomb for context. Bigger than a 500 pounder. But I get the point, Im used to using 100 pounders, even smaller than the 50kg bombs your used to, its not hard, though im more a fan of the 45 to 30 degree angle strike personally. (Not to take away from dive bombing in any 190, that shit is about as far from a dive bomber as you get in the tree.) Though again see the issue of only having 4 slots and only 1 vehicle slot.

I think its enough to touch on, the lack of options can be really painful, like my allied line up ive had to give up my tank slot for a plane slot, both so I can grind out the pilot 2 but also so I can deal with enemy aircraft since I dont have an engineer squad atm since I’m leveling up 3 new squads atm.

Like I’m the same, id say I average 7 tank kills a game? Same again, infantry is the most fun, though I’m far more of a close and personal type of gameplay, I’ve mastered the hip fired bolt action. But maybe its a region issue then, because as I said, its 1 in 3 matches for me, sometimes it gets nipped in the bud, sometimes not. Like honestly even the tanks doing fuck all, I know its better to let them blunder about and waste a tank slot, but its easy research points, and I need all I can get.

[Admiral_Wenli]

Oh now I can reply to you, well here, forums are funky