Share some interesting Chinese weapons

[DaSongSong]

As a Chinese player, I had expected to Chinese battlefield in the past, but with the development of TT,seems ROC can not be a independent faction now.
However, if in the future DF intends to produce the Soviet-Japanese campaign, some Chinese weapons will have a chance to appear reasonably.
I have noticed that Chinese weapons from World War II lack originality and are basically taken over from other countries.But a part of them are NOT copypasted stuffs.
In the following, I will not waste my time on the guns everybody knows,like Hanyang 88 or General Liu rifle.I will introduce some really interesting weapons.
And I hope i can play them through Enlisted in the future.

My English is not good, I am deeply sorry for the possible mistakes.

1. SiChuan Thompson（川造汤普森）
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   

Based on Thompson,7.63x25 caliber.
Sichuan warlord Liu Xiang presided the production of submachine guns, This is one of the variants. About 4700 were produced before 1937.

2.ShanXi Thompson（晋造汤普森）

Basically a Thompson M1923 with a tripod. It has already been used during the Chinese Civil War（1927-1936).
In ShanXi province,more than 20000 Thompsons(including other versions)have been manufactured

means:
September,Year 19 of the Republic(1931.9),
ShanXi arsenal manufactured,
Submachine Gun.

3.Mukden SMG（奉天造冲锋枪）

Based on Japanese Type 2a.
.45 ACP caliber.
1931,IJA captured Manchuria and began their own production through Mukden arsenal.
I am not sure when it finished prototype and when the production began.

Some papers show that they were produced after the war.I dont believe these view,because the inscription shows MMF (Mukden manufacture factory), and this factory changed its name when IJA surrendered.

I cant find the production quantity.The inscription shows NO.02580,i ve seen another one marking NO.00308. So i believe at least 2500 have been made.

A small part of them were even used as movie props during 60-70s.these movies illustrate its large production volume,but maybe some of them were made after the war.

This one was used by Chinese during Korean war,and finally captured by US army.
It is noteworthy that the rear sight was lost.

An anthor variant.

4.Type XiangYing Rifle,semi auto（向应式步枪）

Lately,the Beijing military museum shows some details about this gun first time.
In 1944,18GA wanted to fabricate some new rifles more effective.At this time, Wen ChengDing, an arsenal worker, decided to assemble a semi auto gun using some damaged Arisakas.

According to“Liberation Daily”,He finished at least one of prototypes before June,1945.It still kept 6.5x50mm caliber.There are only 6-10 were made finally.
1946,This gun got its name,in momory of the commissar of 120 Division,18GA,Kuan XiangYing,who died of fatigue and illness.
Later,18GA stopped researching semi auto rifle because of the end of war.

A manual mark: Ministry of industry,ShanXi-Sui District.

5.TaKu C96“mirror box”and“big tummy box”
（大沽造C96“镜面匣子”和“大肚匣子”）


Essentially a faithful copy of the Italian naval version C96,have 10 rds or 20 rds capacity.This gun got its nickname“mirror box” because of its smooth appearance.

Anthor TaKu pistol(more like carbine).Also have 20 rds variant,which is called“big tummy box”in China.
Ian have introduced in “forgotten weapons” before.but there is a point of his view was not right, these guns are not fancy guns for high-level officers,instead,TaKu made them as real combat pistols.

Besides,TaKu factory have a more famous products,TaKu Bergman. A 7.63x25mm caliber SIG,plugging magazine from below.

6.ShangHai Type 4 LMG(四年式轻机枪)

Based on Hotchkiss,thought looks like Japanese Type 11,they are quite different.Feed from 30 rds metallic strips.7.92mm caliber.
Nominally,Type 4 LMG is the standard LMG of the early ROC government, but its production is very limited.
Designer Han ChunLynn finished the prototype of Type 4 before 1915.About 180 were produced around 1916-1921.Later,it still producing sporadically,but i cant find records after 1922.

This one was captured by IJA in 1937

7.APCs

Just put some armor plates on Isuzu trucks,mainly used by manchuria forces.
Some variants only equiped MGs,others have 37mm gun.

﹉﹉﹉﹉﹉﹉﹉﹉
These firearms can appear as gold weapons.If DF truly want to made Soviet-Japanese battle,these guns can also be used to arm a special squad.
But i dont want to see them at somewhere else,just as i hate Crusaders and French Guerrilla at Pacific.Seems DF dont want to work out this problem.

Thats all.i will be happy to answer if u have more questions about Chinese firearms.

[CapitanRastrero]

I think the ROC could be easily implemented into the game, however they might reach their peak at BR III.

But this is fine in my opinion. If we had ROC in Enlisted it would be one of the only WW2 games in the world that feature fighting in China.

[Kriegerfaust007]

0:19 / 11:17

Chinese Warlord Pistols: Shanghai Model 1900 Pistol-Carbinehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lf6S7faQbhg

[DaSongSong]

Yes,but i prefer Soviet-Japanese battle to Sino-Japanese.
In game,u can easily see that there r 2 enemies for German:US and USSR,so as America.It makes USSR and Japan really embarrassed,these two factions only fight with single enemy,maps r also very dull.
Soviet-Japanese battle can solve this problem,if they want to add a new campaign like Nomenkan or Manchuria.

[CapitanRastrero]

Yes I agree 100% but it would be cool to have low BR battles between ROC and IJA.

[_DELAVR]

Great job!

@DaSongSong

6.ShangHai Type 4 LMG(四年式轻机枪)

[Ron_McKracker]

@DaSongSong

In the following, I will not waste my time on the guns everybody knows,like Hanyang 88 or General Liu rifle.I will introduce some really interesting weapons.

The Dadao.

[Kriegerfaust007]

The Sutton Skunk was a little-known tractor tank from early 1932, built for the Chinese export market by Frank ‘One-Arm’ Sutton – Englishman and adventurer. In his time, Sutton made many inventions, and this was perhaps one of his most ambitious. It was simply a Caterpillar 5-ton M1917 tractor that was borrowed from the military and armored up. Featuring two 82mm Stokes mortars and a pair of Browning machine guns, it was a fairly well-armed tankette, almost certainly designed with infantry support in mind. The Disston Tractor Tank (sometimes known as the Disston 6-ton Tractor Tank) was essentially a Caterpillar tractor that was given a simplistic armored superstructure, a turret, and a modest armament of a .30 cal (7.62 mm) machine gun and 37 mm (1.46 in) cannon. It was a Great Depression-era business venture – The idea being to sell cheap tanks to the military, knowing full well that value for money would be a key selling point during the period. However, they were, for the most part, deemed unsatisfactory, and eventually ended up being marketed to developing nations such as Kuwait, Romania, and Afghanistan for army / policing use. China is reported to have received (or at least ordered) four tanks. No dates are given by sources for the order date, but according to “A Place to Live and Work: The Henry Disston Saw Works and the Tacony ” by Harry C. Silcox, four tanks were built in 1938 and delivered in 1939 because of security concerns. The source for this claim is cited in the book, but due to an issue with obtaining a print copy of Silcox’s book, the source cannot be ascertained at this moment in time. Many other book sources also suggest that China received some tanks, too.
In contradiction to Silcox’s claim of four delivered in 1939, one source suggests that the order was actually canceled in 1935, and these were sent to the USMC – although this claim can be largely dismissed, as it is believed that the USMC use is a myth.
There are no records of any negotiations or attempts to sell the Chinese the vehicles. Even if there were, it seems possible that the Chinese would not be interested in the vehicle. According to “General of Fortune, The fabulous story of One-Arm Sutton “, by Charles Drage, the similar Sutton Skunk might have been marketed to China in late 1932, but the Chinese preparations for war against Japan were in the hands of a German military mission, headed by General Von Seekt, who did not need “talented amateurs like Sutton, nor his ingenious improvised tractor tank “.
Whilst the situation was dire in the mid-late 1930s, especially as Sino-German cooperation was coming to a close by 1938, and it might logically follow that the Chinese would now be willing to buy tractor tanks, there is no credible evidence for even the marketing of Disston Tractor Tanks ever taking place. Also, given that the Sutton Skunk was rejected, when ‘One-Arm Sutton ‘ was so well respected in China, it seems unlikely that the Disston Tractor Tank was ever bought by China. If the Disston Tractor Tank was ever sold successfully to China, it is likely that a successful sale would involve Sutton, if he was not, by this time, busy with his mining operation in Korea.
The leading academic on the western armaments trade to China in the early 20th century, Anthony B. Chan was contacted, but unfortunately he has given no comment on the subject.
------------------------------------gold?

The Dogmeat General’s Tank — China’s First Domestic Tank?

August 27, 2020 Leo Guo

A side view of Zhang Zongchang’s tank. (張之維)

The 1920s was a turbulent time in Chinese history, with most of the country divided and suffering through numerous conflicts between a multitude of warlords competing for autonomy. Following the Northern Expedition between 1926 and 1928, the country was ostensibly unified under the Nationalist Chinese. Prior to the country’s pseudo-unification, many warlords built their militaries upon mercenary advisors and business dealings with foreign firms for weaponry. This resulted in a myriad of foreign equipment being delivered to China. For example, Zhang Zuolin’s Fengtian Clique made several purchases from French firms between 1923 and 1926 for warplanes, tanks, and small arms. Furthermore, many warlords also purchased industrial equipment to manufacture weapons for their own armies. In addition to small arms, warlords were able to construct various improvised armored vehicles based off of regular cars and trucks. These indigenous armored cars often accompanied tanks purchased from abroad in combat. In the midst of all the one-off and obscure armored creations, one particularly notable vehicle belonging to the infamous “Dogmeat General” Zhang Zongchang (张宗昌) stands out amongst the rest. Unlike the makeshift armored cars used by most warlords, Zhang’s vehicle was that of a tank. Numerous warlords had already been able to obtain various types of tanks from purchases. However, Zhang’s tank was notable in the sense that it appeared to have been constructed indigenously and was not not foreign-made. Popularly referred to as the “Studebaker tank”, only two photos of the tank are known to exist, taken by a photographer from an American military attaché group led by Captain David Barrett visiting Zhang’s army.

Zhang Zongchang / 张宗昌 (ChinaNews)

Despite almost a century passing since the photos were taken, little about the tank’s history or specifications are known. Numerous theories and conjectures have formulated throughout the years, but nothing definitive can be reached. A popular theory prevalent in Chinese literature suggests that this tank was constructed in China at the Jinan Xincheng Infantry Arsenal (济南新城兵工厂). The Jinan Arsenal was originally formed in February 1926 following Zhang’s decision to move the Dezhou Infantry Arsenal to Jinan, and consisted of Western manufacturing equipment. The tank was allegedly constructed under the supervision of Czechoslovakian arms specialist Ferdinand Hauschildt, who was hired by Zhang to oversee arms production. Curiously, Hauschildt was referred to as German by some sources. This can likely be attributed to his name sounding exceptionally German as well as the fact that Zhang had also hired German specialists to oversee arms production. There are also claims that this tank was designed and produced for Zhang by White Russians (or remnants of the exiled Czechoslovak Legion). This too is possible as Zhang made extensive use of White Russian mercenaries, but there too is no known conclusive evidence to support this. There are also claims that this tank was captured by Nationalist Chinese forces in 1927 and was briefly put on display in Nanjing. The tank was allegedly nicknamed “steel bull” (铁牛) by Nanjing’s citizens before it was scrapped. If this vehicle was truly built domestically, it could very well be the first indigenous tank built in China if one disregards armored cars.

The sole Studebaker prototype in the factory grounds, showing the two machine gun turrets. (tixax.ru)

Another theory is that this tank was built and purchased from abroad, likely from the British or Americans. Reasoning behind this theory lies in the fact that the tank in question bears some resemblances to the World War I-era British / American Studebaker Tank or the British Medium Mark D. The Studebaker tank was designed in the Summer of 1918 by two British officers attached to the British Tank Mission in Washington, DC and produced by the American Studebaker Corporation located in South Bend, Indiana. The power-plant of the Studebaker tank was the British Hall Scott 4-cylinder water-cooled aircraft engine, and its running gear and tracks were based upon the British Newton tractor, also produced by Studebaker. Although designed as a competitor to the British Medium D tank, the Studebaker tank ultimately did not see service with the British due to the war’s conclusion. However, a sole prototype was able to be completed and sent to Britain for field trials albeit without the two machine gun turrets. According to historian David Fletcher, the Studebaker tank was able to achieve a maximum speed of 19.35 km/h / 12 mph and had a minimum crew of three. The British had plans to use the Studebaker tank as an unarmed tractor or a supply tank, but these plans were also forfeited upon the war’s conclusion. The fate of the Studebaker tank prototype is ultimately unknown, but most sources agree it was likely scrapped. Zhang’s tank certainly bore several design resemblances to the Studebaker tank and British Medium Mark D tank, such as the all-around continuous tracks, and similarities between the tanks’ side armor arrangement, the low profile, and in the case of the Studebaker tank, the two machine gun turret set-up (though the turret designs differed). Thus, in accordance with one theory, Zhang’s tank could have been produced by either the Americans or British and was possibly based upon the aforementioned tanks. However, no evidence is yet known to corroborate this theory that a foreign firm produced and exported this tank to Zhang.

The Studebaker tank photographed in Britain whilst undergoing trials. The two machine gun turrets were removed. (David Fletcher)

From a cursory observation, the tank was armed with three Maxim machine guns. Both of the tank’s turrets housed a machine gun, while the third machine gun was housed in a ball mount in the hull. Due to what appears to be armor plating covering the sides, it is unknown what the suspension of the tank looked like. There is, however, a visible idler and sprocket wheel. Other than what can be deduced based on the photos. not much else is known about the tank such as its armor values, crew count, specific dimensions, powerplant, and performance. Curiously, there are also speculations that the tank may not have even been functional at all. Some literature suggests that the tank was built solely as a “paper tiger” to intimidate Zhang’s opponents. Whether or not this theory holds any merit, will likely remain forever unknown.

The British Medium Mark D tank, which the Studebaker tank was originally created to compete against. (David Fletcher)

In conclusion, the tank depicted in the two photos taken by the American attaché group from their visit to Zhang’s forces is perhaps one of the most mysterious yet interesting oddities to originate from China’s Warlord era. Despite almost a century passing since the photos were taken, little to no definitive information has surfaced to explain the vehicle’s true history. Up until that point, most of China’s warlords were only capable of importing foreign armored fighting vehicles, and to a lesser degree able to create makeshift armored cars. If this mysterious tank was indeed functional and not a mere “paper tiger”, it could have very well been the first tank (in the most common definition) to be manufactured in China, preceding the Type 59 medium tank (considered to be China’s first tank based on the Soviet T-54) by around thirty years. The truth about this tank however, may never be known.

A frontal view of Zhang’s tank, showing a third machine gun located in the middle of the hull. (張之維)

----------------------------Disqualified 1949 too beautiful for the world of enlisted

[DaSongSong]

Thanks.But these pictures might not Type 4 LMG(i am not sure).
Japanese also made some prototypes based on Hotchkiss,they called it at “Tubeless LMG”(idk the exact English name).
And it is quiet similar to Type 4.There are complex relationships between Type 4 and Japanese LMGs.
This picture says it is a Japanese LMG

besides,here is “Tube LMG”,baesd on Lewis.

[Ina_Miyo]

Actually, easy red2 has already working on second Sino-Japanese war, and nearly publish it

[Suzumebachi14]

Very nice. I hope we could have a chinese tree one day. The main drawback however, is the fact that there would be a ton of foreign weapons, both captured and bought. The chinese had weapons from pretty much all around the world: american, british, german, russian, japanese, french, swiss, finnish…
If there is a weapon that was mass produced somewhere in the world, you can be sure the chinese bought or captured some of these.

[Kriegerfaust007]

Rare Tanks of China ( 1918 to 1950 )

Republic of China (1938-1942?)

Light Tank – 19? Built

Upgrading the AMR 33

The Renault ZB was essentially a lengthened test (and later, export) version of the AMR 33 fitted with a more versatile suspension type. The suspension type influenced later designs, such as the Renault R35, but the Renault ZB was rejected for French service. However, in 1936, the Kuomintang and Yunnan Provincial Government ordered sixteen vehicles which appear to have served in Burma in the early 1940s, where they were presumably lost.

[_DELAVR]

@DaSongSong

Thanks.But these pictures might not Type 4 LMG(i am not sure).
Japanese also made some prototypes based on Hotchkiss,they called it at “Tubeless LMG”(idk the exact English name).
And it is quiet similar to Type 4.There are complex relationships between Type 4 and Japanese LMGs.

Honestly, we can’t determine where the Chinese and Japanese versions of the machine gun are, so we can say that either there are no differences between them at all (except for the country of manufacture), or they are too insignificant in the realities of our game. Thus, we have quite a lot of photos of this rare machine gun, and if desired, the developers can introduce it into the game.

@DaSongSong

besides,here is “Tube LMG”,baesd on Lewis

This is literally the same machine gun, but with a barrel casing like the Lewis bullet (although the barrel casing is similar, it differs from the Lewis barrel casing).

[Naohmcete]

we stole it!

[rrangwoo]

Im definitely ready to charge with 抗日大刀

[CapitanRastrero]

Yes I am Aaare of this. Sad that Enlisted will not be the first.

[CaptainBeel]

Thank you for your post. And dont worry your English is pretty good.

There are two more factions I would consider for Enlisted and thats it.

France-Poland-Belgium-Netherlands (thats one faction made up of 4 countries, I made my own post on that).

The other is Republic of China. Now, I personally am completely fine with a Chinese tech tree. People whinge about copy paste but I think its fun having a combination of various different countries weapons in the one tree.

However the general consensus seems to be no ROC tree. Some have on the other hand supported ROC being added as a sub faction of either the USSR or USA.

Based on those discussions I agree adding Chinese squads under USSR would make the most sense. The USSR obviously supported Mao and the PLA but also its been requested that USSR fight Japan so I think adding Sino-Japanese war is the best way to do that. It would also add more variety for USSR beyond constant snow maps.

I like all the ideas you posted for weapons and hope this gets added one day.

I also hope if DF does do this they arent dissuaded by the haters because as I said I dont have a problem with copy paste. Indeed one of the many reasons I support this is because Id like to compare German weapons to Japanese weapons (since China had a lot of German tech due to Sino-German cooperation).

Perhaps you have heard of the German general Hans Von Seeckt?

[DaSongSong]

Yes, i know Consultant Seekct.
i believe the main obstacle of adding independent Chinese faction is the history of each corps.Many famous Corps and Divisions only fight in single region.For example,18GA(eighth route)never go to ShangHai or Manchuria.
Some famous Divisions were even eliminated before they go to somewhere else, like Central military Academy Teaching Division,they suffered heavy losses in ShangHai,and was annihilated completely in Nanjing.

[CaptainBeel]

Good to know however I wouldnt worry about it too much. Look at all the real life groups we have in game with completely incorrect weapons and in the wrong locations.

We’ve got Italians fighting in Berlin, Australian commandos in the Ardennes, the French resistance in the Pacific, not to mention multiple volksturm groups (which masquerade as regular infantry forces, at least the German guerilla squad is specifically volkssturm)

We also note how, for whatever reason, DF tends to avoid real life battles. Tunisia and the Pacific are all just generic desert/pacific island, while D Day isnt even based on any of the real beaches. The villages are made up too.

So for China theyd likely just do generic Chinese battles hence I wouldnt worry that such and such a group wasnt in Shanghai cause they wouldnt be fighting in Shanghai, just a 'generic 1930s Chinese city"