I decided once again to be productive and not bully other forum members.
I decided to not only rework the campaigns according to my will but also to rework classes, mainly Rifleman, Driver, Medic, Fighter Pilot, Engineer, partly Bomber and Sniper and/ or their squads. At first, I want to deal with our favorite class… not only because the debates around the class are a single massive meme debate.
Yepp, its another fancy “Pls. add APC” thread in a nutshell. I know its…
that I am going to talk about them since I was (and partly am) not a friend of them.
For that lets… assume a wonderful world, where
maps have their full size and cp are not 100m away from your spawn point
fast vehicles are ACTUALLY fast
Df somehow manages to integrate drivers into the campaign tree
(AT) explosives etc. are limited to bomber and engineer
bigger teams
and maybe people play less like kamikaze maniacs and care for their life
Isnt it a wonderful world?
I know, its a lot of cope to take for us, but why not? This forum is a copium mine anyway.
(And I not only offer you this so I dont get rightfully bullied by the Anti-APC Avengers)
So.
As any other class, we will get three squads and classes.
The plan is that each squad will get three different vehicles. Not only to make them more asymmetrical, but also to make them worth to grind. NOBODY wants a bike at level 20, let alone 35+. We want APCs and mechanized guns.
I will take Moscow as example because it’s my favorite campaign (even though it’s a joke nowadays) and because it is interesting at the end balance-wise.
General bonus:
Drivers will get a bonus for driving with allies in their vehicle. It is not much, 2exp for one solider and additional 2xp for each fifth soldier to avoid exploits because the Latvians hate exploits which help us but not them. Also, you earn the xp for each 20m you drive. If you manage to get troopers close to cps (lets say around 75m), you will get 100cp for one soldier and again additional xp for each fifth soldier. There are additional ways to earn xp.
Trucks and normal APCs can be turned into spawn beacons similar to HnG. Unlike engineer-built beacons, up to two squads can spawn in the truck at the same time, and it is mobile at the cost of being bigger and louder. You will get the same xp bonus as with the normal beacon, but unlike in HnG you need to stay close to the vehicle. Otherwise, you won’t be able to let people spawn inside your vehicle.
Trucks and APCs can also turn into mobile ammo boxes. Infantry within a range of 50m (debatable) will auto get ammo for normal infantry guns each minute. You will get xp as well. Heavier guns (AT weapons, MMGs/ GPMGs, mortars and flamethrower) need to go to the truck and resupply there like it is a ammo crate.
And lastly, normal APCs can be used as a radio vehicle. They are basically a radioman II. They are able to call smoke barrage (where you will get xps btw. yay ^^) and a special barrage. You need markers to call the special strike, and it is limited to specific areas (not cps). Only one active radio-APC can be used in a match.
They are all locked behind the squad focus tree because no one wants to grind a ammo truck. Excpetions are heavily armed APCS and trucks but thats reserved for later.
Lets come to the classes.
Driver I: Motorcycle
Purpose: Fast mobile shock infantry
Squad Size: 3
Vehicles: PMZA-75 (USSR) / BWM R12 (German Reich)
Driver I squad are egoistic drivers. They exist as fast and small infantry troops being able to get behind the enemy front line and perform tasks according to the other classes they carry around. They can carry Bomber, Sniper, Gunner, Assaulter or Engineer. I guess I don’t need to explain what you can do with those classes, except for the sniper, but that’s a different topic.
Driver II: Motorized infantry
Purpose: Move infantry and supplement to the front
Squad Size: 4
Vehicles: GAZ-AAA (USSR) / Opel Blitz (German Reich)
Too bad, I already explained almost everything here. Nothing to add. Transport infantry, let them spawn inside your truck or deliver ammo to the front.
Driver III: Mechanized Infantry
Purpose: Move infantry and supplement to the front / Use the specific gun for its purpose
Squad Size: 4
Vehicles:
I T-20 (USSR / Sdfkz. 250
II Gaz-AAA (DShK) (USSR) / 8.8 cm Flak.37 sfl (German Reich)
Radio III Rocket Artillery Barrage (USSR) / Railway Cannon Strike (German Reich)
As mentioned before, they exist to get infantry to the front, either by driving them or by letting them spawn inside your APC. Or turn it into a radio. Additionally, this squad has access to (better) armed vehicles. It also includes heavily armed motorized vehicles, as I don’t want them being available too early for reasons. In that case, the Soviets get a less armored truck with a powerful machine gun, being able to pen light vehicles, mop down infantry and shoot down planes. The Germans get a mobile 8,8cm flak (where I am not sure if it was in Moscow, cough cough) to deal with the T-34 M40. It has a powerful but slow firing gun and only the driver cabin is protected at the cost of visibility. Also, the Soviets will get the T-20, the glorious camping machine from HnG. It is smaller and can only let one squad spawn on it and its crew is limited to two members, but it’s smaller in return and the driver and gunner are better protected.
How is your opinion? I know it’s mostly useless in the current game meta. Let’s just imagine and cope a bit, and pretend the maps are at least big enough. I also want to debate about the xp bonus whether if they are too big or too small to make the vehicles interesting to use.
Especially our beloved APC fundamentalist @ErikaKalkbrenner needs to give me feedback (if you have the time and will ofc)
And to my beloved APC hater amigo gang pals… lets not make it as
as possible. I know I am not at the high ground to ask to not shitpost about APC threads. I know APCs in the current game meta are gonna be useless and mobile ammo boxes are nice but also useless rn and radio APCs are debatable in the current arty meta. And I know the devs will never ever read this otherwise I will play lottery. Roses are red, the blub is blue, shovels are useless and binoculars are Rommel simping tools.
I must again object to the forum copium that is APCs (with the exception of the Bren Carrier because it’s such a gimmick I want it) for the simple reason that APCs and transports in general end up being dumb as shit in execution in games like this, even if the playerbase tries really hard to make them work. Which includes me, I tried to make them work in another game.
Map size has a practical upper limit because you have to account for players wanting to dogpile into the same house no matter how big the map is, limiting player count and player count limits map size. imo that upper limit is not much bigger than the biggest maps we have now.
Say problem 1 could be solved. 90% of players will use them to taxi to the point and then immediately abandon them, making clutter like we see with jeeps and shit now.
Say you get a weirdo like me who’s actually going to try to play taxi driver. Reality is transports are a co-op heavy role and randoms won’t cooperate most of the time. Even if they did you’ll probably get fuck-all in points to your trouble.
kindof connecting to point 3, most of your time as a transport driver will be spent running and/or hiding from anti-armor seeing you as a nearly-defenseless exp pinata.
also forgot to mention that one of my biggest peevs during my Dust 514 days attempting to be a transport driver/pilot was the players who would spawn on me then go AFK inside, taking up slots until I learned an exploit to teamkill them without destroying my vehicle.
That is the intended use actually. “Playing taxi driver” is about as silly and gamey as leaving tons of cluttered vehicle wrecks on a tiny map that is already cluttered. Other points still stand, however. I don’t know if I have THE solutions, but I’m sure some things could be tested if developers have a desire to implement them (because this doesn’t sould like an issue you can entirely theorycraft your way out of).
An APC is supposed to safe(ish)ly get your squad where it needs to go and then provide fire support if possible after they’ve disembarked. Perhaps they could work in a game mode where you aren’t expected to respawn too many times (like in WT).
The maps would have to be a whole lot larger and less cluttered for them to make sense being in game at all. The maps (or rather the active zones) we have right now don’t work even for tanks (and even less so for airplanes), let alone infantry transport.
Really the biggest issue is you’re under-armed and under-armored in a battle full of tanks and AT weaponry.
Dust’s transports had the advantage of being fast as fuck to just keep evading for a long time, but a transport that’s running isn’t getting anyone anywhere.
Can’t really hide for long because if you can hide, infantry can sneak up on you.
I know its a lot of cope to ask for. And yeah, those things are gonna be useless in the current meta with 100m distances.
Which is why I propose to give good xp. I would suggest much more but Df is really aware of xp exploits for reasons and other mechanics.
I mostly see it as in HnG where people usually just hop in and out and defend it if necessary and I would say the cooperation level is similiar in both games. I only see the issue in moments where you spawn with a tin can and wait for plebs when the battle already started etc.
Again yeah. But it is a thing in HnG and it works despite their low defense skills. I see no issues IF the maps support some sort of second-line and hide-and-seek/ gun-and-run.
Also I want to limit TNT to bombers and engineers so people can only harm them with two inf classes and vehicles or by bunny-jumping on them.
Edit: Forgot those fancy AT rifle grenades so three of people actually bought them.
Is/ Could be a problem and I dont have a solution here. Shit happens.
right, so here are my very “hot” and Strong takes from a very cold and ( almost ) dead inside person.
to start off:
to my analysis. you are bullying me now.
baaaaaaaaaaaaadddd.
but let’s not get over our selves.
i’ll be blunty. i kinda have mixed feelings from this suggestion. and if you don’t mind, i’ll address the good and the bad.
( because i feel like it even though it’s not needed ).
as i’m here for the main part of halftracks, there’s only so much i can say about rework classes.
maybe i’m used to it, but i don’t really know how will that happen. still, we can try.
nothing wrong about it kameraden
i often see these points. and if it’s another attmpt of " if you don’t have those specifics/requirements, you cannot have halftrucks " that’s truly overrated and not many thoughts put behind.
because i stand my ground, i will not run, and i will say this until my forum’s death.
you don’t need a playfield just to use halftrucks. the primary goal of haltrucks ( for me ) and how were used in real life ( not the transportation one ) is as a support role.
you are not gonna be much of a support if you have to reach the battlefield miles prior.
as ( hopefully ) devs implement specialized halftrucks based on utility, each and one of them has a different role. as everyone knoes by now, ya got ( should get… ) a medical halftrack, a piooner halftrack, a ammo carrier halftrack and a normal halftrack.
each and one of them have a different role and serves a different purpouse. which people often tend to forget, but the main reason why i labeled ad them, and request on several occasions the introduction of them is because has mainly as focus the PVE in mind. which it’s coming, will be a thing, and i’m someone who makes PVE mods ( although, many of them unreleased because no AI tanks, other difficulties in pathfinding, and other stuff not available to me yet ). there, pve ( at least for me ) are meant to be much slower and realistic. still provides a challange if not played carefully ( and pvpers will just end up dead trying to charge a well fortified position mindlessly. as they should i guess ) hence, halftracks are gonna be much more useful as you can use them and shift the tides yet having drawbacks and pros depending on the halftruck that the player choose for the mission.
i could spend hours on this topic, but for sake of time,
TL,DR;
usefull mainly for PVE, can be used on PVP as well.
it’s a supplement. not a replacer like many thinks.
yes, you can lie down ammo/medical boxes and can be somewhat faster. but the reason why someone would chose a halftruck instead is because the halftruck will carry more resourches than a standard placeable/constructable box. and, one thing that people still forgets, not everyone likes planes or tank. hence decide to bring a forth infantry squad. ( although, not much of a squad since IF you decided to use specializations instead of the normal haftruck one, in order to not be a jack of all trade and realistically speaking, you can’t really use more than 2 soldiers with these of type vehicles where are stuffed for good. ( as the rear compartment is technically locked by the supplies and not much for a space to place someone ).
3 squads?
you WILL get a bike at level 20, maybe a truck at level 25 and a halftruck at level 30 this way.
whether i somewhat agree that halftrucks shouldn’t be that far in the line, i yet think that shouldn’t be given right away as well. otherwise you will have dead halftrucks everywhere. a usefull tool should not be given to everyone right away as they will just waste it, and avoid competent players from using it. similar to what already happens with tanks in the pacific.
the m13 and japanese AA are quite usefull, but often gets wasted by those who do not have anything else ( and it ain’t their fault in this occasion since they got not other vehicle but… still )
there are two things that i’m not particular fine with it. well… more or less a 1.5 out of 2 that is wrong for me.
i mean, i don’t think we really need drivers… as we have the riders and we can utilize them. ( or instead remove them and replace them with normal tankermen. only difference from tank squads, is that their vehicles do not share the slot with tanks. therefore even if you don’t like tanks, you can still grind the tankers. as creating differences might be a bit heavy on the grind side.
( in my humblest opinion of course ).
second issue is… out of all the uses of halftrucks… you kinda want to limit them to being taxi drivers?
nothing wrong with that ( hence why i said it’s not really a big of a deal ) as i think it would be usefull more in LF than in squads. i mean, can still be used in squad as well, but very situational. i think halftracks can fill that huge gap of lack of teamplay. and still help your teammates while keeping the battle going. or having way to refill what you need ( not entire soldiers or squad from dead men though. that would be unlogical ). i guess halftrucks can and have all rights to be also transports. but the problem that i have, it gives me a bad vibe from H&G. which i despised. even though was… somewhat functional.
i don’t like having the same thing ( even though many people claimed that my view it’s similar to them ) although not quite. maybe i’m blind. idk.
anyway, i don’t want them to be limited to be only of transportation uses.
a bold and brave man… may you rest in peace for wanting better in a dying campaign… ( not because of the lack of playerbase ( even though it plays somewhat of a role ) but because of the questionable balance ).
this… i like less.
we could instead, make it similar to PS2 where you could instead have to press a button and antennas will be risen. although, to still have somewhat of balance, you’d need to de-station your halftruck which would require good ammount of seconds and a cooldown before you can re-place it down again.
although, that’s on my point.
whether more or less i tend to agree, i don’t really see you talking about cooldowns. because a halftruck and a mortar squad ( especially the 102 mm from berlin ) can be devastating and not so much fun to play against.
second thing that i like less, is that you are merging rally and ammo utility whitin one.
that’s… a bit unrealistic, and convenient for having somewhat a jack of all trade.
i rather have things separated and each specialized in the variouus field. as for example, engineers that have deployed all their resources cannot refill. or in other campaigns where medics are not a thing, i think a medical halftruck would be beneficial as well without offering too much.
that is certainly interesting.
hence, gave me an idea to the introduce of a 5th halftruck.
a medical one, a ammo one, a transportation one that comes with the squad, a piooner one, and lastly, a command halftruck that can be used for rally point and call special abilities. heck even drop supply drops but have less resourches than the specialized one.
that is very interesting and a good idea.
well, the base idea is to grind for a normal halftruck, and then through the squad yellow tech tree ( or blue ) you can unlock the ability to change the specialization of your halftruck. so you don’t have to go through all of them, but just use the first enough for then being able to change the one you want to use the most.
btw, the more i write the more i see how much of an A****e i am. coming in others threads and suggest MY stuff. make MY points and stuff like that. i’m sorry
but, as i’m someone who truly cares about halftrucks, and wants the best implementation for them, i hope you can forgive me and understand my view as i do not want halftrucks to be bland and gray bricks placed on the map for then being wasted by everyone. i can see their potential, and i want to make them into reality.
sounds good to me
you… what?
this actually made my brain inplode. and not for good reasons.
how can you…:
tell me that you are not actually being seriously comparing this:
they got the M3 / M5 from the lead lease. they don’t necessarely have to use … that.
also, not really present in WT, which for devs view, it’s always better to use something that they can modify instead of creating from zero. which the same goes for the sdkfz 250.
the only halftruck present for the germans in WT that can be used for APC ( and was introduced in enlisted as well )
is the halftruck 251.
the more boxy and longer version.
as otherwise you wouldn’t be able to pack stuff on that small halftrack.
another… thing that it kinda confuses me, it’s… they are mechanized infantry, yet they… somehow get acess to GAZ AAAs and a halftruck with a 8.8 cm flak ?
now, to my understanding, motorized infantry nor mechanized infantry had such equipment, ( more plausible for the gaz ) certainly not the 8.8 flak. through various sources, the 10 8.8 halftrucks built, were used and given in anti tank panzer battalions ( more like company ). which to answer:
they werent, as the 559 anti tank battalion company along side the 601 were probably in the leningrad front, but considering that we got jumbos, M24s, t50s, pzIIIBs and various other vehicles where they shouldn’t, it’s just beating a dead horse at this point. hence, i don’t see why not their introduction.
first… you want more he explosives on your battlefield?
weren’t you against it?
for the rest looks, okey to me.
i will fight you.
are you… really willing to die on this hill?
well, what can i say. in conclusion, looks like i almost doubled the thread it self.
( damn if i text so much )
maybe i’m biased with my own thread which i think it’s still a top notch and a must have in this game as it’s more focused for specific actions and roles. yours is a bit generalized and does not cover in depth many " issues " regarding balance ( such as the cooldowns, numbers on the field, etc ) and further questionmarks.
I’m not sure about that one.
According to my knowlegde APCs were supposed to serve transport role (just like trucks) while being armoured and having good/ok cross country performance.
In short, militarised truck.
well, personally, i don’t find the transportation that fun.
but as suggested ( and technically, people will start with the transportation halftruck with machinegun ) can have it’s uses and scenarios to it as the others are not able to carry more than two troops which will be controlled by players.
especially in PVE upcoming gamemods where i wish them to be realistic where you have lots of places to secure which might not always be near 200 meters from each point ( unlikely we’ll get that from devs given PVP gamemodes ) or after all, those can still be used in Mods.
I see your points and I partly agree that we can try it in Tunisia and Pacific andpossible PvE mode… whenever that comes. Still no reason why bikes exists but not APCs.
But thats a discussion we have for “ages” now and I see no point in debating it with you anymore… not only due to irony.
Meh. More like level 5-10, level 15-20 and 25-30 plus the armed variants at the end of the road.
That at least was my approach for Moscow. And personally I would take a motorcycle squad, probably with an AT rambo for the HnG reference meme or reworked sniper. At least in my dream world.
Its up to taste but I totally get it that we dont need motorcycles at level 20, more like around level 10.
Which is why the mechs are for late mid-level and end-level stuff.
I just call them drivers. Its basically the same as the rider class except I find the name more suitable for a four-wheeled+ vehicle than rider.
I am against making the usable by tankers because those should be seperated things as the devs partly did. We dont need to treat a Soviet Ford copypaste with an HMG like a T-34 for slot and ressource reasons… unless its necessary.
Yes and no.
I mean you can upgrade them later one to turn them into spawn beacons, boxes or radios. Yeah. You start with them as taxis. After all, they were designed for this in first place with extra protection compared to trucks.
Talking about HnG, some plebs used them as mobile MG “support”, but that didnt work much because of free Faust crates. It could someow work in Enlisted but then its something you can also do with a tank. Tanks should do such jobs, while APCs, trucks whatever should fullfill logistic purpose. If people want additional firepower apart from tanks, then they can grab that truck with the Soviet .50 cal.
I admit I need more idead for trucks. Medic “box” could work either.
Sure. Sounds reasonable. Or maybe reserve it for one vehicle type or lock it behind a upgrade in return for only one slots and longer cooldown.
No no no. Maybe I didnt state it out properly but you have to choose between ammo, (medic box) or spawn beacon upgrade for trucks.
Ammo + beacon would be too overkill yeah.
Agree. It needs a cooldown for heavier guns as it has for normal guns. Thanks for the reminder.
Medic trucks. Noted.
The thing is, APC shouldnt be able to get ammo or medic stuff because then… why do we need trucks then if the APCs are better armored and have a MG? I am not necessary a fan of ticket or spawn time restrictions as these things didnt work in HnG and I prefer asymmetrical tastes here. E.g. if the games allows flanking possibilites, people will prefer light tanks etc. over heavier tanks because they want to flank/ gun-and-run. Same goes for the APC vs. trucks. People who prefer logistic, can play the truck while people prefer more “egoistic” gameplay, can stick with the APC.
At least thats my opinion.
1+
Reminds me on BFV, where you could give tanks and planes upgrades and you always had to choose between upgrades (e.g. better engine or better guns). Combine this with the squad/soldier tech tree decision and everyone is happy… I guess.
Because it is a funny tank(ette) and I dont wanna have M3s and M5s all over the place. It saw limited usage in Moscow era though mostly as transportation vehicle fro artillery cannons.
Same goes for the 250 one. As long as it is historical, diversity is important.
But if you hate this poor little glorious bastard sniff… then okay.
There were mechanized divisions which had access to motorized guns, at the least the Soviets.
Speaking of the Germans there were Panzer-Pioneer or Panzergrenadier Divisions as you mentioned armed with such mech. guns so maybe they can be used for this. Together with the normal Sdfkz whatever here, so I see no issue here apart from historical aspects.
I hate Leningrad. I guess I need to cope with a historical Sdfkz.
Well. How long does it take to reload a railroad gun? 20min at least? Worst case, someone annoys me for one minute and then he can “only” smoke around for the next 20min. Same goes for the Soviet/ Allied arty strike here And even if we say we balance this for game reaons, 10min is also long. At best “only” three rocket barrages in a game unless the game are longer but I prefer this over those annoying 30 seconds barrages we have rn.
I need to be honest. I dont pretend the situation is good for this idea. Esppecially since many maps already struggle with planes and even tanks and the explosive meta is another issue. IMHO its already mistake that we allow tanks on most maps. Nobody likes it, both the non-camper-sick tanker and the infantry player.
I worked with the absolute mimum that maps are bigger, only two/ three (if we count AT grenade rifles) classes are able to seriously damage/ destroy armored vehicles and that cps are way larger away than rn. And I know that 90% of the people, where I care to some extend about their opinion and/ or are not mentally retarded greyzone campers, are aware of those issues and want them gone/ fixed.
Things such as new team sizes etc. is personal taste for me. I would like to have 25 players per team at bare min., but I dont know if the servers can handle this and if most people prefer such a potential mess. And it doesnt really matter apart from the radio APC which I already limited to one active APC and one call per 10-20min.
Which is the main reason why I more broad than you. Also because four+ eyes see more than two eyes I guess^^.
Me.
Because I am mentally sick and because you took your time to read my little wall and I am nice.
Yes, thats once again
in fact, this is probably the first time we actually argued and make a discussion out of it.
we always agree on each other as we both ( and roughly ) have similar ideas on many things.
on this though, i’m aftaid i can’t agree.
i “”"“simp”""" more towards uniform.
not halftrucks.
halftrucks in my scenario are more of a unutilzed and often underrated tool which for once i decided to “push” to be a thing as they have potential and their place
mate