MP34(ö) and S1-100 fire rate buff and → BR2 (+new SMG for Japan)

Hello bajtársak and fellow forumdwellers!

A short history

The Steyr-Solothurn S1-100 was born after the first world war, as restrictions forced the German arms industry to continue weapons development and production in neighbouring countries.
The weapon itself was designed by Louis Stange, who would go on to design the FG42 as well. The S1-100, like most SMGs of the interwar era, was influenced by the success of the MP18. It was made to the highest standards earning it the nickname of the Royce-rolls of submachine guns due to the high production costs.

In the 30s Japan had purchased thousands of S1-100 chambered in 7.63 Mauser while Austria´s police adopted the it in 1930 and the army in 1934, after the Anschluss the Austrian army was integrated into the Wehrmacht and were redesignated to MP34(ö) standing for Österreich (Austria) and would go on to see service with both Whermatch and Waffen-SS.

In game both variants of the MP34(ö) are BR1 and are represented as slow firing submachine guns, both firing 450 rounds per minute without upgrades and 520 rpm max upgraded.
However, this assumption is incorrect.

The MP34 was chambered in many different cartridges from 7.65×21mm Parabellum to .45 ACP, naturally different bullets came with different fire rate thus sources can vary between 500-600 rounds per minute.

Source for 9mm parabellum (in game, European Axis tech tree) (he talks about fire rate at 2:15)

Source for 7.63x25mm Mauser (in game, Japanese tech tree) (he talks about fire rate at 8:50)

Both of my sources have personally fired these weapons, thus their claim of both submachine guns firing 600 rpm is highly accurate.

In fact most submachine guns that were based on the MP18, such as Lanchester, Tallinn Arsenal M23, Bergmann 1920 share the same fire rate of 600 rounds per minute.

However increasing the fire rate will massively buff these submachine guns thus they deserve to be moved to BR2.

Comparison with the BR2 Lanchester

Submachine Guns Damage Reload Timings (s) Statcard Recoil Actual Recoil Moving Spread Increase
Weapon Name Obtained BR 10m 100m Velocity Magazine Reload Alt Reload Rate of Fire Vertical Horizontal Recoil Control Vertical Horizontal Dispersion While Aiming Hipfiring Visual Recoil Recoil Dir ADS Speed Recoil Offset Sprint Factor Weight Additional Info
S1-100 5000 RP I 7.0 3.5 370 32 2.3 1.9 520 22 9 0.4 9 4 0.60 0.0 10.0 1.6 0.1 0.8 0.3 100% 4.2 32/128
MP 34(o) 20000 RP I 6.8 4.0 400 32 2.3 1.9 520 31 13 0.4 12 5 0.66 0.0 15.0 1.6 0.1 0.8 0.3 100% 4.0 32/128
Lanchester 58000 RP II 6.8 4.0 400 32 2.3 1.8 690 30 11 0.4 12 4 0.71 0.0 15.0 1.6 0.1 0.8 0.3 100% 5.2 32/128

Furthermore, considering that the S1-100 is Japan’s first tech tree SMG, I would like to suggest a replacement as well.

Tsingtao submachine gun
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The Tsingtao Type 16 submachine gun (also sometimes spelled as Tsing tao or Qingdao submachine gun) was developed in around 1927 (16th year of Chinese republic) at the Tsingtao Iron Works factory (青岛铁工厂). This submachine gun was also manufactured at the Dagu Naval shipyard (天津大沽造船厂生) and likely at many other factory and even smaller workshops.

It is a licensed copy of the SIG Bergmann 1920, with a very notable difference of having its magazine moved from the side to the bottom of the gun.
Due to the decentralised production differences may occur depending on which factory made it. Most were chambered in 7.63 Mauser which was very popular in China at the time.

These submachine guns were captured by Japanese soldiers in large quantities and because Japan had already adopted the 7.63 Mauser, ammunition was plentiful.

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thank you.

i was kinda surprised no one ever mentioned it.

recently i was editing weapons to be accurate to their fire rate and i was kinda surprised by the mp34 how slower it is in the base game.

it doesn’t make a lot of sense either.
in real life, was called the roll Royce of submachineguns, due to being good and expensive.

yet in the game it’s a slow inaccurate pea nail gun shooter :frowning:

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There must be a way tho to make slow RPM SMGs more interesting to use instead of buffing them all to have faster rates of fire.

Why dont we finally consider giving all slow rpm guns much better deviation?

higher damage and less dispersion doesnt work, just look at M3A1 submachine gun.

Weapon Name Obtained BR 10m 100m Velocity Magazine Reload Alt Reload Rate of Fire Vertical Horizontal Recoil Control Vertical Horizontal Dispersion While Aiming Hipfiring Visual Recoil Recoil Dir ADS Speed Recoil Offset Sprint Factor Weight Additional Info
M3A1 Submachine Gun 32000 RP II 8.2 5.5 265 30 2.4 1.8 470 24 12 0.4 10 5 0.52 0.0 15.0 1.2 0.4 0.8 0.3 100% 3.6 30/90
Lanchester 58000 RP II 6.8 4.0 400 32 2.3 1.8 690 30 11 0.4 12 4 0.71 0.0 15.0 1.6 0.1 0.8 0.3 100% 5.2 32/128

despite its high damage and very low dispersion, no one used it over Lanchester because with higher fire rate you will hit the enemy faster even if you miss more, the real solution would be removing the fire rate increase, or at least replace the 15% increase with either a fixed number of +50 rpm OR even better +30 m/s muzzle velocity.

The biggest problem with the 15% increase is that a high fire rate guns wins much more than a low fire rate even though the low fire rate gun objectively needs it more.

Sad, I like them on BR1, particularly the MP-34 as other alternatives only have 20 rounds.

But I guess that a buffed MP-34 would be similar to the lanchester.

Well, For Germany you can use the Mp3008 instead while for Japan the Type 100 (early) will still be an option, both SMGs are very similar to current MP34(ö)/S1-100.

Being a STEN copy, it would have same RPM as STEN.

This one would have about 700 RPM, there numerous posts on forum about it.

Most WW2 SMGs had >600 RPM, outside of Grease Guns (and maybe MP38/40).

Maybe reload speed for magazine-fed guns can be increased X1.5/X2 times to make players control their firerate.

Oh you are right, I forgot this weapon is now BR1 (though its sight are terrible)

Yes I already, in fact, use them over the S1-100

And don’t get me wrong, your suggestion seems perfectly legitimate to me!

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I don’t think that YouTube videos are reliable sources, with all due respect to Ian McCollum. Therefore I will publish the German manual for the MP 34 submachine gun:
feb16a89ea20b34f94deaec3620fe28871ea4307

And a table from a Japanese document on naval armament for land warfare at the end of the war, in the document the S1-100 has a rate of fire of 750 rpm (but I should note that in the same document the SIG 1920 has a rate of fire of 1100 rpm and is gas operated, which is a mistake and calls into question all other characteristics):

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I think it’s in Dutch.
And I think it’s a translation of this British manual

name of the manual.

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Oh… For some reason I thought this was a German manual, thanks for the comment.

Mp34 should definitely receive some love. Such a premium gun, what a pity. However, I don’t support adding any more Allies or Chinese guns to the Japanese tech tree. All Chinese smg, along with Ke7, should first be added to Allies (which means the U.S. in game) tech tree or be reserved for future bp, events and premium squads. Type 100 early is fine as a br1 smg so I don’t think there is any need for that.

I disagree, technology had improved significantly in the past 90 years thus people nowadays have much easier time in calculating fire rate. An old book or even worse, the official manual are usually far below in quality than Ian´s videos.
Back in the day it was determined by practical observation and calculations based on the time it took to load and fire a certain number of rounds, or through live-fire exercises where hits on targets were counted against the number of rounds fired. Modern methods often utilize chronographs and computer analysis to precisely measure projectile speed and calculate rate of fire.

In fact you will find most Hungarian sources in the 30s and 40s quote the practical fire rate rather than the theoretical we use today, because that was significantly easier to determine thus more accurate.
Meanwhile today you can even go on youtube and count the bullets fired yourself thanks to slow motion and get surprisingly accurate results.

You didn’t quite understand, what I mean is that the spring could have lost its properties and/or modern cartridges could have different characteristics (different bullet weight or powder charge).

And I don’t fully understand why you need to raise the S1-100 when increasing the rate of fire of the BR, it would be better to worsen its other characteristics and leave it at 1 BR (I don’t want Chinese trophies for pumping, I’m still not myself from the M2 Carbine). Well, we have PPD 34 and PPT 27 at 1 BR.

Replacable, though you can actually go on the website to see the condition, he usually mentions if anything had to be replaced ect.

The difference still wouldn’t be crazy different, these are rounded numbers so there is more than enough room for that. Besides different bullets were available even during WW2.

S1-100 for Japan, rechambered from ‘7.65×21mm’ to 7.63x25mm they used IRL would change velocity from 370 to 430 and damage from 7.0/3.5 to 6.6/3.3. With about 600-620 RPM it would be very similar to BR1 STEN.

9X19 version Germany have is in more tricky situation, with >600 RPM it would go to BR2. I say leave it as it is.

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the 7.0 damage is a feature of the S1-100, it was buffed on purpose a long time ago.
with 600 rpm this submachine gun would be far better than Sten even with 6.6 damage so the BR increase is necessary.

yes, thats what I said. It will be very similar to Lanchester.

Sorry, should have clarified I meant 600 RPM for 3 star upgraded gun, not base one.
STEN has 630 RPM at 3 stars.

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oh right, make sense if we assume that the fire rate of the S1-100 (7.65/7.63) is only 550 which Ian also mentioned for that specifically, than they would have equal fire rate, though Sten Mk.II would still come with high dispersion and worse sight.

Submachine Guns Damage Reload Timings (s) Statcard Recoil Actual Recoil Moving Spread Increase
Weapon Name Obtained BR 10m 100m Velocity Magazine Reload Alt Reload Rate of Fire Vertical Horizontal Recoil Control Vertical Horizontal Dispersion While Aiming Hipfiring Visual Recoil Recoil Dir ADS Speed Recoil Offset Sprint Factor Weight Additional Info
Sten Mk II 20000 RP I 6.6 3.4 370 32 2.3 1.89 630 28 17 0.3 8 5 0.81 0.0 15.0 0.7 0.4 0.8 0.3 100% 4.0 32/128
S1-100 5000 RP I 7.0 3.5 370 32 2.3 1.9 520 22 9 0.4 9 4 0.60 0.0 10.0 1.6 0.1 0.8 0.3 100% 4.2 32/128

Well, I wouldn´t be against buffing S1-100 to 550 rpm as that is still realistic and nerf the damage to same as Sten but it will be meta for BR1, I hope you know.

and on paper the t34 tanks were one of the best medium tanks of the war
t34 built after ww2 were amazing
t34 built during the war lacked things like real optics, headlights, a gear shift that did not require a hammer.
In fact tankers were being executed or exiled for the insane number of break downs.
making a gun with cherry picked parts and reproductions, i am sure some guns worked as advertised and some guns would kill the user if attempted. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIZ6PFYUM5o