M13 uber

Mess Room
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Yesterday I got out my Soap Box and had a rant about the Ha Go, but after some sleep and a larger than usual does on my meds, I think really it’s the M13 that the issue.

I did just now have another Go, with the Ha Go, and put 8 rounds into a M13 in the Front and turret area and never killed it, before another one showed up and put a 2 second burst into and Blew up my tank.

The armor across most of the vehicle was 0.25 inches (6.35 mm) thick with a 0.5 inches (12.7 mm) thick windscreen visor

Even with the 47 mm on the Ka Chi, that I was using a lot of till 6 pounders started to one shot me left and right as people ranked up to be able to use them more often, it took multiple hits to kill the M13.

So, the take away hear is the M13 is out of place on the progression, as its very over modeled in terms of it’s toughness, ability to take hits and keep on trucking, and it’s guns are way to effective against the armor it’s directly pitied against.

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So while it is clear that the .50 could pen the lightly armored Ha Go, even the slightest offset angle would dramatically degrade the penetrative power of such a light round, but in game this does not seem to be the case at all.

Such a light round would also not be able to deal such imamate and devastating effects to the vehicle either, the crew certainly would be vulnerable, but typically the Ha Go explodes in a couple seconds from .50 call’s penetrating the Ha Go.

The HE from the Japanese 37 mm and the 47 mm are also largely useless in game terms as well, you need to actually hit an enemy solider to hurt them with it, that and there AP ammo is as noted above very week.

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Personal thoughts, I just don’t use the Japanese tanks right now, at all.
Not that I was ever a tanker to begin with, but they are not even remotely close to being any kind of fun.

If I need to take an M13 out, its with my AT rifle, which is shockingly very efficient at doing so.
In 58 games I’m up to 175 destroyed vehicles. Far surpassing my nominal clip of 2 per game.
They are quite fun to destroy with a Semi Auto 20mm cannon.

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The Ka Chi, was fun until people started leveling up and spawning six pounders, It takes multiple hits to kill them with the tank gun and the six pounder can kill you in one or two hits, I have been using the water to get some good flanking shots and I was killing quality with the half tracks with it, but it generally took multiple hits to kill them six often maybe eight, but all that ended again because of the 6 pounder.

Part of the problem with the tanks is obviously the Map’s, There’s simply horrendous to maneuver on, enlisted is very infantry centric and there’s just way too much shit all over the place Way more cover than what is really needed the only campaign that avoids this for the most part is Tunisia apart from the new map which is also quite horrendous for using vehicles on.

The Japanese tank guns just aren’t doing enough damage for the most part or the targets are too strong one or the other, Perhaps a bit of both

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You’re missing some important details as they pertain to the weapon system’s performance in combat, in game and how it worked IRL and how it’s modelled.

The M2 AP round, out of the non-aircraft (so M2HB, not AN/M2) it starts at 2935fps out of a 45 inch barrel. The longest shots we have, practically speaking, are less than 400m(437yds). If I’m reading this graph right, the rounds are still moving 2470fps, and capable of penentrating .8inch(20.32mm) of RHA, unless the angle exceeds something like 27 degrees, which would expose more of the side of the tank. That’s plenty for penetrating the Japanese tanks in the game unless the plate it hits is really well angled. So we’ve established that in most cases, the .50 is perfectly capable of defeating the currently-available japanese armor. Next.

It doesn’t have to. Volume of fire matters. If the m13 is firing short bursts to avoid oveheating, it’s still putting out loads more fire than the Ta-Se with it’s 20rd magazine. That means the m13 can absolutely shred the Ta-Se’s crew very quickly, especially if the return fire isn’t particularly accurate

The M13 has basically no armor, which means it’s hard to kill with solid/lowcharge AP/APHE, you have to hit the crew. Even with better APHE, fuse sensitivity matters, so if 6-12mm of effective armor isn’t enough to trigger the charge, it don’t go boom.

It’s like in war thunder, no armor is often best armor.

I’ll ask this, since you’ve attempted to identify a problem you’ve percieved, but no suggested a solution: If the M13 is misplaced in the progression, what would you do to change it? Swap the Ha-Go and M2A4 to level 1 and the SPAAs to level 9? DF put the SPAAs early to help combat another thing people love to moan about: CAS spam. Would you replace it with a different vehicle? All of the other contemporary US SPAA have more or bigger guns (M16 MGMC, two more fifties, M15 MGMC, smae fifties plus a 37mm cannon).

The problem isn’t that the American vehicles are too good, it’s that the Japanese vehicles are the best ones they could put in early, and the American ones are the worst that would have been in the pacific, so it’s as close a balance as it gets. The only other solution would have been to omit armor from the pacific entirely.

This gun is a problem, as is the Flakvierling 38

This is a LOT of what’s going on

They’re doing the damage they should probably be capable of, just like the american .50 M2 and 37mm. Small guns, light armor, it’s a game of sniping the enemy crew or gambling on an ammo rack.

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The lack of damage with HE is not a issue constrained to just Japanese tanks, all 37mm guns have functionally 0 splash and their AP is always lackluster at best. With the US M6 unless you hit crew or ammo directly you aren’t doing anything 90% of the time, meanwhile the 47mm on the Ka-Chi actually has usable anti-infantry splash on it’s HE. This even omits the fact it gets APHE which is vastly superior to all of the US 37mm solid shot available.

To that same end spawned AT guns are, by design in every campaign so far, capable of lolpenning most tanks they come across, this is the same case against the US in the pacific campaign as well, AT guns are meant to do this.

That and you can MG out the gunner on M13 quite easily, his head protrudes slightly above the gunsight just like Ta-Se’s crew does. Frankly though the 20mm cannon on the Ta-Se is just outright better against everything the US fields as well given it’s refire rate. The primary issue of the Ta-Se is the exposed crew, but the M13 shares that issue.

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The Ta-Se is worse than the M13 in every way, the 20mm on it does nothing unless you get the first shot, and even if you do, you actually have to aim it unlike the M13 which sprays everything. It also bounces off actual tanks from the L2A4 and upwards, while the M13 shreds any non premium japanese unit on the battlefield from any angle. Ta-Se also stores ammo in the turret (a trait it shares with every Japanese tank), whereas the M13 ammo storage is way in the back close to the ground, and half of it is bugged (doesn’t register) - Meaning it can expose the gun and fire without any risk of exploding.

There is a reason we see 20 MGMC and 1-3 Japanese tanks every game. Non-premium Japanese tanks perform abysmally in comparison. “Mg out the gunner easily” is not a thing when you have to hit a pixel, while he basically has to shoot in your general direction.

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Neither the M13 or the Ta-Se exist in a vaccuum.

Laughs in Type 97 Anti-tank “Rifle”

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It still only wins if it shoots first. True, they don’t exist in a vacuum, but that’s beside the point. I’m still absolutely correct. People spawn the M13 because it works, and they avoid the Ta-Se because it does not.

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You’re not absolutely right, and that lack of vacuum isn’t beside the point. I’m not gonna tell you you’re wrong, because you’re presenting an opinion, with flawed logic to justify it. I’m presenting my opinion, with what I think is much better logic to back me up. Sure, if you ignore the entire rest of the battle, on paper and in practice, with absolutely dogshit players driving the vehicles, the ta-se probably loses the majority of the time. If you know where to shoot, get to shoot first, or don’t just sit still like an asshole, there’s no reason to lose to the m13 every time, especially on a battlefield with other things for them to shoot at and other threats to their vehicle.

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You will not lose to the M13 every time? He only has to expose his turret and wait for your mag to empty. If the body of the M13 is not visible, the Ta-Se absolutely cannot kill it.

Oh, and the AT rifles - No more than the Boys is needed, japanese ammo is always in the turret & there’s no armor protecting it. One good hit is enough.

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As long as the turret is visible on the M13 you can easily kill it with functionally anything since the gunner’s head peaks out of the turret. It cant shoot you unless it exposes that turret which is as weak as the rest of the vehicle and contains a easy to hit gunner.

That and if the M13 player is waiting for you to empty your mag, why are you emptying your mag or moving in the first place. If you know he is waiting to shoot you, how about you actually do something about it, you are, after all, a mobile vehicle.

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No, I don’t. It’s only got one guy in the turret, behind half an inch of armor. If you’re not a donkey, you won’t lose every time. If you do lose every time, you need practice, and to think before you just yeet your vehicle at the enemy. Stop being so salty.

You’re right, the Boys does pretty well against japanese armor out to 300 or so, but it’s bolt action and 5 rounds. The type 97 will pen the m13 if you can hit it and will absolutely kill any crew in its path. Can’t see the gunner? Dope, is it a shitty island building in the way? Cool, either guess on a risky shot or shoot the engine, it’s practicly a guaranteed fire.

What we have here, my man, is a classic skill issue that’s plenty salty.

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Once you unlock the Typ 5 45-mm, the US tanks no longer look like points.
No matter where you hit it, you can destroy it with one hit. Try your best to advance through the levels. A very enjoyable experience awaits you.

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If you think you can pen a rock with the Ta-Se, you should go try it.
You have a bolt action with 5 rounds, one shot kills if you hit, and weak spot will always be exposed on Japanese tanks. You don’t think that’s enough, I think that’s the real skill issue.

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I have, the Ta-Se has absolutely no problem penning the M13 basically anywhere, and the only places that matter are the turret in front of the gunner, the driver compartment, and the engine. There’s not really enough ammo in there to detonate even if you hit it.

Sure, but that same weak spot is only a little harder to hit on the M13, I know, I’ve done it more than once. Also, you have other tools available. Lunge mines, Type 97 ATR, WP Nades, Explosion packs.

Enough for what? To justify removing the absolute worst american SPAA that they could have put in the game, or justify giving the Japanese a better one? Either way, if you’re losing to the M13, every time, regardless of circumstances, it’s not the tank that’s the problem.

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You’re just willfully misunderstanding my post at this point. It is not “the same weak spot” on the M13, shooting the gunner only kills 1 crewmember. There are 2 more. He has no need to expose his driver compartment or engine if he parks behind a rock out of bounds, which most of them do, which is the problem in the first place.

Who the hell talked about removing anything? No, Einstein, “enough to completely destroy every japanese vehicle with one shot, even if only turret is exposed”
When you can OHKO every target there is no reason to complain about the Boys.

There is, however, endless reason to complain about the M13 and how it was implemented. They are the best non premium spawn available in the campaign by a long shot. Nothing about your “but it explodes if you do this” whataboutism changes the fact that it is a technically superior weapon.

It needs to be made trash like the Ta-Se, particularly the splash damage so it needs to aim like every other vehicle, and the damage model so the (VISIBLE) ammo storage on the M13 turret can be destroyed. Currently it is vastly overpowered and bugged, it cannot be engaged effectively or intuitively like other vehicles when used correctly, and I’m 99% certain you are complaining because you like abusing it.

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If I’m not understanding your point, you’re either failing to make it, making it poorly, or getting mad that I still disagree. I ain’t bothered, regardless.

Shooting the gunner in the Ta-Se only kills one crew member, there are two more. Is it easier to hide the remaining crew in the M13? Sure, I’ll grant you that, but he’s still gotta switch one in if he wants to keep shooting. Same=Same.

I’ll agree that greyzone armor is and has been a problem in this game since day 1

Not you and not here. Others in other threads, or further up in this one.

Do you insult everyone who talks circles around you, or am I special? :stuck_out_tongue:

I’ve never OHKO’d a japanese tank with the boys, though I’ll admit I’ve never done it from close enough to get a guaranteed hit on the ammo. Also, in the post you replied to, I didn’t mention the Boys ATR at all.

There’s certainly enough reason for you and others to winge about it enlessly, but they’re not good reasons.

I can agree, mostly. It’s better than the Ta-Se, but it’s not by “a long shot.” This is a matter of opinion though, so moving on

It’s not a whataboutism, and the M13 only has one technical advantage that matters for this argument: Rate of Fire, which becomes pretty irrelevant if the player is a donkey and overheats the guns.

The Ta-Se isn’t trash, if the player doesn’t suck

The M13 doesn’t have splash damage, it’s got fast RoF. You already can destroy the ammo on the guns on the m13, they’re just small targets. It could be easier, I’ll grant you that.

It can be fairly said that it’s a little overpowered, if at all.

Perhaps, I’m pretty sure the damage model for the ammo at least isn’t working as it should/as intended, which is a lot of what’s contributing to the perception that the vehicle is OP.

This can be said of basically every tank in the game, except maybe the T60 and the t28 that only gets shrapnel and he. If you make play mistakes, you get clapped.

I think you’ll find that I’ve barely used that vehicle crew, and I can tell you I’ve got more games in the M2A4, and don’t consider either vehicle to actually be worth playing over infantry. Do they have advantages over their japanese counterparts? Sure. But the M13 is pretty easy to kill if you know what you’re doing, and the M2A4 is a relatively thin-skinned glorified machinegun platform, with an underperforming cannon (yes, it’s still better than the one on the Ha-Go) and shit visibility.

The oh-so-obvious evidence of my 'abuse' of the M13

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Thank you for agreeing with basically every point I was making from the start. Was it that hard? The only person you’re running circles around is yourself. Lmao.