Please add IS-2 No.321 (IS-2 1944 without steel mesh) as a gold order vehicle.
Im asking because the steel mesh does not help, it only gives enemy a hint which tank he should target at first 
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Doesn’t the mesh protects a bit against pzfausts? 
Seems like no. On Pz3N and Pz4H it’s also doesn’t work I guess.
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That’s a bit sad… I thought it worked vs HEAT like projectiles… 
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Iirc these skirts only helped against ATR rounds anyways.
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No
Yeah, seems like.
Mesh didn’t really help against anti tank rifles, we had this discussion.
I only remember someone saying that it worked against HEAT, which didn’t.
Also I have never found any source mentioning it failed against PTR rounds.
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its a mesh, they moved from plates - which were specifically designed to stop anti tank rifles - to mesh, because they found out that plates stopped HEAT, but people didnt use anti tank rifles anymore, so a mesh would be sufficient to still work against HEAT.
its such a simple logic.
the mesh has too big room, a bullet will just move through it, but a HEAT grenade will be caught and be forced to trigger further away from the real armor of the tank.
the existence of mesh alone is proof that it worked against HEAT.
I dont know where to begin. The best would be to ask for sources, I guess.
Anyway…
Even if so, I think only one or two of the German tanks/ “skins” (IIRC the Panzerjäger IV and one of the J variants) have mesh like this…
Everything else is plain steel plates. Only two tanks in this game have mesh skirts, and those were the Panzerjäger IV and the IV J. Everything else used the old normal skirts since they were made in the late 44’s or so.
Wrong.
They did not stop shit, at least not on a large notable scale. They failed to stop the jet stream from penetrating the tank.
" From the development history above, it is clear that it is a myth that SchĂĽrzen were designed against hollow-charge ammunition of the Bazooka or PIAT. As the American army did not use anti-tank rifles, military intelligence assumed that the SchĂĽrzen were designed to protect against the weapons they knew. The theory was that the stand-off distance would prevent the jet from the hollow-charge ammunition to reach the armor. Russian late-war tanks did use specially-designed wire mesh protection welded to the turrets, to protect against German hollow-charge weapons, such as the Panzerfaust. The actual effectiveness of this is still debated, with reports indicating that it would be effective against low-quality hollow-charge ammunition, but not against high-quality ammunition."
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It is, at best, contested/ disputed.
Also, the meshes did not change much. They were designed to combat the design flaws of the steel plates, such as their size, weight, and cost.
Also wrong. The Russians still used the PTRD and PTRS en mas as of 1945. They didn’t have access to rocket launchers beyond capturing Panzefäuste en mas since 1944 and had a limited supply of Bazookas.
Only the Allies really stopped using them because of the poor-performing Boys ATR, but the Germans did not face Bazookas and PIAT until late 1942 when they still developed SchĂĽrzen. Obviously, because they anticipated rocket launchers being used by the Allies when they invaded Russia.
Not really, otherwise…
- Why did the Germans not develop meshes and skirts for the Tiger I and only those small weird mini-SchĂĽrzen for the upper part of the tracks of the Tiger II and the Panthers if it actually worked against HEAT and if no one used ATRs anymore?
- Why did the Germans only use mesh wires for their cheapest tanks if they were so useful against HEAT warheads/upgraded the ones that are already deployed too?
- Why did the Germans keep using skirts in Russia if it didn’t work against ATR, according to you, and since the Russians were the sole nation that largely relied on ATRs?
- Why didn’t the Soviet cope cages work if it also grants space?
- How did the Germans manage to develop something against a weapon since Early 1942 (if not earlier) that they did not face until November 1942, when the Allies invaded North Africa?
- Why did the Panther Schürzen only protect the lower body of the tank and not the entire side? Why didn’t later Panther tanks get meshes as well?
- Why weren’t there any (mesh) skirts on the turret of the Panther?
What now?
And the point was, that the ATR round would deform and lose energy and could not penetrate the tank.
Which actually worked.
It is interesting to note two things: That while SchĂĽrzen were being experimented on at the same time, they were not considered as a potential solution, and that the idea to use asbestos or clay was similar to modern, composite armor.
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Also:
Am 21.12.1944 wurde in Kummersdorf ein VersuchschieĂźen durchgefĂĽhrt, allerdings nur mit den SchĂĽrzen aus Maschendraht und Panzerfaust bzw. -schreck. Ergebnis:
“Das Verhältnis der beschleunigten Masse beim Auftreffen zur Masse der Schürzen, die durch ihre Trägheit das Geschoß bremsen sollen, ist derart unterschiedlich, daß die Schürze die Geschoßwirkung nur unwesentlich beeinflussen kann. Alle Schürzen sind mit der Aufhängevorrichtung beim ersten Schuß zerstört worden.” Auch wenn die Schürzen aus 5mm Blechen und nicht aus harten Drahtnetz sind, wird die Wirkung der Hohlladunggeschoße nicht bzw. kaum gemindert, wobei die allierten Hohlladungsgeschoße in ihrer Wirkung den dt. nicht nachstanden. D.h. die dt. Schürzen waren unwirksam, behinderten das Fahrzeug, teilweise sogar den Höhenrichtbereich des Geschütze, waren nicht sicher befestigt und eine Verschwendung von Material."
(Note can’t find the proper source for the report and is mostly referred by other people in forums etc. so not 100% legit, but goes mostly in line with the previous source)
For short:
- Both wire and normal skirts did not stop the HEAT warhead from penetrating the tank.
- The Germans viewed skirts as a waste of resources and even as a hindrance for tanks against HEAT warheads, especially against German warheads.
That is dumb. The skirts were invented against the PTRD and PTRS and that was what they were good at. Heck, the SchĂĽrzen are the sole reason why the Germans did not scrap the Panther I because otherwise, the Russians would have trolled them even more by penning their sides with ATRs.
Coming to this conclusion is weird, especially if it is just based on the assumption that the extra space might work to stop HEAT warheads, and apparently, it did not, or at least most indicators are leading to a no.
And mesh really only existed because of resource reasons and the design flaws of the steel panels.
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Yes, the meshes were completely useless. But even so, Soviet crews kept putting them on their tanks, with the classic “something is better than nothing” mindset. It was more or less a placebo effect to boost their morale.
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bit like their body armor 
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