Idea for conciliating the the pro-subfaction camp and the pro-new nation camp : cross-tree progression for copy-paste weapons and other things

I am personally in the pro-new nation camp, but I can understand the criticism of the pro-subfaction camp about potential Commonwealth and Italy new trees, and there are two main ones :

-There is too much copy-paste guns and vehicles in high-tier because there are not enough unique guns made in mass-production by these countries, so searching for the exact same gun/vehicle in a different tree will be very annoying

-This will further divide the playerbase because it is already divided enough between 4 nations

To address these two big concerns, I came up with a few ideas. I will take the example of Italy, because this might be the most complex new nation to implement in case of its implementation.

First, in the case of copy-paste weapons and vehicles, I have the idea of cross-tree progression :

Basically, if a gun was used by Germany and Italy during WW2, for example the MG42, you would only have to research it once, because the progression for the research of this gun would be common to the two tree :

Let’s say you are researching the MG42 in the german tree, and another weapon in the italian tree, your progress in the research of the MG42 will be the same in both trees, because it will be the exact same gun for both nations, so if you unlock it for Germany, you will logically unlock it for Italy too.

But these nations would strictly have in their trees the weapons that were only used by them : for example, the german tree would not have access to some italian guns that they never used, like the Beretta 1918, the OVP, the Carcano snipers… Same for Italy, you would not have access to the FG42 for example. Because these nations never used these guns. But that doesn’t mean that you will have to research again the italian guns you unlocked in the german tree !

The italian guns that would be removed from the german tree would be transferred to the italian tree, and of course, given the fact that you already unlocked them in the german tree, you would not have to unlock them again in the italian tree.

It would be similar for the german guns used by Italy : for example, if you already have unlocked the MG42 and have some of these guns in your inventory, you would not have to research it again in the italian tree, but the guns in your inventory in the german tree would NOT be transferred to the italian tree.

This would only apply the the exact same guns however, because if the caliber of the gun is different, then these guns should be different too. For example, the americans used the Lewis in 30-06 Springfield caliber, but the british used it in .303 British caliber (even if the british also used the 30-06 version, but that is another story), but these guns would be considered DIFFERENT, you would not have access to the cross-tree progression because these are not the same gun.

You can also note that the transfer would also concern the soldiers : italian soldiers would obviously be transferred to the italian nation, so maybe you would want to use that « nation-change » mechanic the devs recently introduced before the update that would implement these nations, if you want to keep soldiers that are currently italian for Germany, or if you want to transfer german soldiers to Italy. You would just have to use the « nation-change » mechanic before the update implementing the new nations.

Second, is the problem of high rank equipment :

We all know that Italy would really struggle in high rank battles, because they never had jets or heavy tanks like the Tiger during WW2, so I have an idea here too :

Germany and Italy were allies, and sometimes they fought side by side, but everyone had their own equipment, so for high rank tanks in the Italian tree, I suggest that you could use the high rank german squads with the high-rank equipment. For high rank battles, you could choose in the menu in the italian tree to equip the german squads with high rank equipment like the german Tiger squad or the german Me-262 squad, because while the italians and the germans sometimes fought side by side (italian infantry alongside german Tiger tanks), the italians never used the Tiger tank themselves, for example. This idea would be some kind of cross-tree squads in a case-by-case basis.

Italian soldiers training alongside german soldiers and german Tiger tanks (seen training to use a MG42 in the first pic):
image
image
image

Third, is the problem of the division of the playerbase :

That is an argument often used against the perspective of new nations, and it is understandable. Indeed, designing new maps specifically for a new nation would be long and costly. While this would still be something the devs should definitely work on, there are still other solutions too.

We know that Italians and Germans fought in Tunisia and Stalingrad (the italians were more on the outskirts of the city, but we can twist the arm of history a little, it wouldn’t be the first time for the devs after all), the British and the Americans fought in Normandy, North Africa, and the Pacific.

My idea would be to use the already existing maps for battles between two factions if they were present in this theater of war. For example, battles between british and italians on Tunisia maps, british vs germans on Normandy maps, italians vs soviets on Stalingrad maps, etc, etc.

And in the rare case of not having enough players of one nation in the queue for battle, the game could still match you with other nations on these « common maps », so for example, if there are not enough players playing Italy waiting in the queue, the game could fill up the ranks of the team with players playing Germany, so you would have Italy and Germany, because there are not enough players for an italians-only team, against USA on Tunisia for example, because italians and germans both fought in Tunisia, just like the US and UK. So instead of having 1 nation vs 1 nation, it could be 2 nations vs 1 nation, or even 2 nations vs 2 nations, but just in the case of not having enough palyers of one nation waiting in the queue, and of course the number of players on both teams would be the same as usual, this would just be a backfill mechanic to avoid dividing the playerbase.

Finally, why would we want more nations you ask ? Well, there are many reasons : we could just want to play on maps where Italy fought (for example that would be a good way to have more chances to play on Tunisia or Stalingrad), and it would also avoid to see soldiers screaming in italian in Berlin, which is very awkward to say the least. We can also just enjoy italian weapons, have italian customization only, and also, a very important thing : the devs could bring back some legacy squads (but only the italian and british squads of course) to put them back in the game, but in the new nations this time !

I have thought about this concept for a few weeks now, and I think that this might be a good idea ro reconcile the players who want new nations, and the ones who just want to have subfactions, just as it is right now.
I really think that this might be a cool and concept overall, because then, we could also apply it to other nations as well, I can think of France, Finland, Hungary, Poland, or even the Netherlands !

I think that’s all for now, tell me what you think of this suggestion, and give a like if you appreciate this proposition, because likes give more visibility ! :slightly_smiling_face:

I can recommend you a cool subreddit too, it is called r/FascistItalyPhotos, you will find a lot of unique and interesting pics, this is where I found some of the pics of the italians training alongside the german Tigers. Go check it if you like italian WW2 stuff.

4 Likes

There is no need for seperating the subfactions, shared progression system can be solved much better by adding subtrees.

As for seperating the playerbase, we should first push for 0/+ BR rather than Italian vs British only maps.

Besides if you really want Hungary, France ect subfactions than that is only feasible if subfactions are not seperated.

7 Likes

Sure if they only get the weapons they designed and built or significantly altered
included is UK Commonwealth would the BSA Thompsons but not standard Thompsons
the Sherman firefly or sexton or Grant but not the standard Sherman or Pershing or Stuart
on the other hand the us would not get early uk fighters just because they used us browning 303 mgs or some tanks that used us engine no more than the uk would get some p51s because the us used uk engines
why because the us gave weapons and or sold them so everyone would have the best us weapons and with the current mix the us gets less.


i think UK or Italy only maps should be more a rotating series of event as stated we dont want to split the user base. i think it should be a separated mode not added to the rotation of maps and faction rotation. also Germany took the best from other countries it shared far less i doubt germany ever gave italy any meaningful number of tigers or panthers. perhaps it should be limited to br3 4 like japan should have been. i like the idea of subfaction but more of a subfaction either always playing with its other half or limited to its own tech. Having UK as a subfaction fighting its own battle but using, Thompsons, BARS and Garands feels hypocritical. yes they used us weapons but they more used their own gear like brens, einfields and stens.

It’s kind of the same concept overall, but pushed a bit further, but it’s still not an entirely new nation that you would have to grind again from the start. What you already unlocked, you keep it. Plus this would avoid seeing italian solidiers in Normandy or Berlin, which is really awkward to say the least.

UK bought a lot and acrively used Thompson M1928. These guns are exactly the same as the american ones, so if you’ve unlocked them in the US tree, you would automatically have it unlocked in the UK tree, that’s what I was talking about.
But the Bren and Vickers-Berthier would be transferred to the UK tree for example, because the US never used these. If you’ve already unlocked these in the US tree, it would automatically be unlocked in the new UK tree, and the guns in your inventory for the US would be transferred to your inventory for the UK, because these guns have nothing to do with the US, but you would NOT have to research these again. You would keep everything that you have already unlocked/bought, some of the guns would just be displaced or not available for a nation anymore.

Plus, Italy never got Panthers or Tigers, they got some guns from Germany, but not much vehicles. That’s why I talked about cross-tree squads in a case-by-case basis. The italian nation would have access to the german squads using high rank tanks and planes.

Does that really matter when we can see Mp3008 in Moscow or Fedorov 1912 in Berlin?
Just for your information, Italians did fight in the battle of Normandy as part of SS units as well as Fallschirmjäger units.

2 Likes

Thats the problem The US would loose far more than the UK would keep of the US would keep from the UK and Commonwealth. most us weapons were developed and made by the us. while the us supplied massive amounts of weapons to the USSR and UK. Germany and Italy are not as bad but at the very least much of Germanys tech is already pilfered from other countries.

USSR an Japan would not have subfactions at all and thus would not have their tech tree gutted. What would the UK use for semi auto rifles not the Garand or M1 carbine or Johnson those would need to be us exclusives. sorry but this mode lets UK Italy take their toys while still playing with German and US toys.

I can see exceptions being made but letting the UK take the bren, Vickers Berthier and Besal but keep any of the BARs MGs that seems unfair. If they are separated they need to either equally share weapons or be equally separated with few exception the M1928 Thompsons could be one. Getting UK Italy gut low BR gear but pilfer high br gear because balance. But pilfer or keep gear because of history seem opportunistic.

In reality we almost had the Tigers and we were training on them before the armistice threw everything in the air and since Japan managed to have one that they didn’t even touch I don’t see any problems with the Italians who were not only at a more advanced stage but also knew how to use it.
26804332_800067393528945_4962756308490678538_n
image

Partners are a different story,

cwIU8iz

while the P 43 Bis has a good chance of being introduced and we have much more information than the Ho Ri which is practically a “trust me bro”
semoventi_105_e_P._43bis_3
20638197_1939094739708906_8855555680959126248_n
P43-1

Fun fact

Although the P43Bis is often depicted using this model, the Wot P43 Bis is the most historically accurate to the real thing.

image
image

then obviously there is the M division but I think you already know it

Divisione M

Not only were they in Normandy and kept their REI uniforms but also the RSI was present such as the 1st Atlantic Division Marine Fusiliers on the Atlantic Wall and on the island of Cezembre


image
image

3 Likes

That is for balancing reasons, and you probably know already what I think about the Fedorov 1912.

UK got a fair amount of M1 Garand that they distributed to the Home Guard. They also used the M1 carbine. But for US, there are still other options of guns, most notably, I think about Thompsons with 20 round mags, or the M1917 and M1919A4 machine guns (I am thinking about a new mechanic for these guns that I will suggest one day). But you have no idea how it makes me cringe when you have US soldiers using SMLEs, Stens, Brens or Lanchesters.

I had no idea that some italians were in Normandy, because I live there (Villers Bocage is at less than 30 minutes on foot where I live, lol). I have done pretty much the majority of museums in the region, and I have NEVER heard about this. I trust you when you say that, but these guys must not have been very numerous. And often in these museums, they talk about all the nations that participated on D-Day, and there is quite a lot of them, including french commandos in Ouistreham, and it was one of the only cases where the VGO machine gun was used in combat btw.
Sometimes they also say that prisoners from the eastern front participated in the construction of the Atlantic Wall, but I have never seen the mention of italian soldiers anywhere.
Also, I didn’t know where Cezembre was, but I understood when I checked: it’s not in Normandy, but in Brittany.

If you’re interested, here’s a collection of photos of Italians in Normandy.

A group of German prisoners captured in Normandy disembark from a train at Kempon Park station in England. Among them is an Italian.

Prisoners captured by the English in the Sword Beach sector on the morning of 6 June 1944. Several of them are Italian
image

A long line of German prisoners captured after the surrender of Cherbourg in the summer of 1944, is escorted by American soldiers. Among them an Italian


image

Normandy June 6, 1944, captured Italians and Germans were then transferred to the USS Texas which was stationed offshore.

image


2 Likes

20250824_013802

3 Likes

I can see why they are not mentioned now: if everytime the allies captured a few dozens guys there were only less than ten italians among them at best, then of course 80 years later, not much people know they were there in the first place. For example, the garrison in Cherbourg was fat (several hundreds at least), if there was only one italian in the group, no wonder not much people know the italians were there.

Is it something you must put on your profile pic with photoshop to pressure devs tu make an italian subtree/faction ? I saw those posts on a number of new topics, I don’t know what it is yet. But I must warn you: I have never used photoshop, and I have no idea how it works. :sweat_smile:

1 Like

Well sense I don’t have adobe on my laptop or anything else I just use the phones cropping and stickers to make and put on thw mustache

1 Like

Don’t know how that works either, never did that too. And I still don’t know what the mustache is for, lol.

Us NIEM members wear ot to spread the word that we want Italy to have more squads, weapons, tanks, basically everything.

1 Like

I’ll have to try putting it on my profile pic then. Bit my WW2 french guy already has a mustache though, not sure that it will be very visible if I put it on top of the existing one. :sweat_smile:

1 Like