Engineers' AA and MG need a change

Currently many players use AA to shoot at infantry. Imo it’s caused by the fact that AA building is better than MG nest in everything.

AA in comparison to MG nest is:

  • faster to build
  • cheaper to build
  • can be unlocked by engineer I squad
  • has shield
  • has 20mm rounds that can pearce through wooden structures like many buildings in the Moscov campaign
  • does not overheat and reloading it is faster than cooling down of MG after overheating
  • has 360 horizontal rotation and far better vertical rotation
  • can shoot down planes and even damage light tanks

To “fix” the AA gun and MG nest I propose:

  • make MG nest unlockable by engineer I squad

  • make MG nest a lot cheaper and a lot faster to build

  • add ammo and need to reload to MG nests

  • increase the time it takes MG nests to overheat and decrease the time it takes for MG nests to cool down
    See also: Make MG nests also nation specyfic in mehcanics + other stuff

  • make AA gun more expensive and slower to build

  • give a lot more points for shooting down planes

  • solve the issue of kamikadze bombing

  • disallow AA gun to be built inside buildings

  • make AA gun requite a crew of 3 soldiers to operate at full efficiency (so mainly rotation and reload speed)

  • make AA gun easier to destroy by ranged AT weapons (currently it seems kind of bugged)

  • [EDIT] make buildings appear in some form when they are build. It would simulate the process of deploying a structure instead of just materialising it.
    So for example after building AA gun to 1/2, a flak on a trailer will appear (see the picture) and when we finish it will swap to the working model.


    It would mainly serve as an early warning that the enemy is building something.


The final result should be as follows:

MG nest should be fast and convinient to build. But at the same time it should be vunerable to small arms fire.

AA gun should require effort, time and safe yet open place to be build. It’s primary target should be aricrafts that grant a lot of points when shot down.
At the same it still will be a powerfull weapon against enemy infantry but also it will be an easy target for enemy tanks, mortars, artylery and AT launchers. So a high risk, high reward tactic.

23 Likes

I agree with everything except maybe the construction time increase for AA gun.

It may discorage people to actually build it against planes.

3 Likes

I realize its game of course but how do soldiers assembly an entire 20mm AA gun is less time than throwing a MG on a sand bag?? Not to mention the MG nest gets destroyed about 10 seconds after construction is finished.

7 Likes

I also saw it yesterday going through brick walls of buildings in Berlin.
20mm explosive shell shouldn’t be able to penetrate building. It should just explode.
But it’s probably just a bug since the last patch.

Unless building become destructible, it just feel like a bug.

4 Likes

I’m not sure if it’s not a mix of HE and AP of some sort.

AA gun use HEFTI ammo

5 Likes

And also i think mg nest must be destroyed easily by grenade and explosive.

AA gun must be used by full crew, gunner, commander, loader like At gun.

Lastly, i hope they realize realistic gunner sight.

1 Like

They are probably using the “default” belt from WT:

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You can see that its a mix of API and HEFIT with a penetration of around 26 -19mm at 30 degrees between 100-500m respectively which is about the typical engagement range in Enlisted.

This is probably why its so effective vs some of the early war tanks when firing through the side hull plate just above the level of the wheels. Since I’m grinding Tunisia atm, here’s a sample of tanks from that campaign and their relative vulnerabilities.

So in the case of the A13 MK II, the default API-T can pen out to 500m - Note I’ve increased the angle of obliquity to 45 degrees so the side armour on these is pretty vulnerable even at significant angles.

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The crusader should be relatively protected at 500m but has a weakspot just above the roadwheels in the identified location As the obliquity decreases and the shot becomes more perpendicular to the plate the probability of penetration increases significantly.

The Sherman II should largely be immune to the API-T and it only gets borderline at <100m and at angles of obliquity <10 degrees. Any higher angle and the shot will not penetrate.

The Grant has the level of resistance as the Sherman II

Looking at Axis tanks the PzIII N is the best protected of the lot, so looking at this vehicle, it becomes vulnerable to the 20mm API-T at <200m and similarly to the Sherman at obliquities at less than 10 degrees. The other vehicles will be vulnerable at 500m all be it the Tanks will need shots at obliquities < 20 degrees, whilst the lighter vehicles will be as vulnerable as the A13 Mk II.

2 Likes

I suspect its a case of mislabeling then, because HEFI-T are designed specificially for unarmoured aircraft skins and have very little penetration, which would make it almost ineffective against anything on the ground in Enlisted.

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1 Like

I agree with pretty much everything, except for this

Forbidding people to bring stuff or build it into rooms it’s not very… realistic. It’s just about fixing it’s damage box so tnt and packs can help

Disperation give you infinite strengths

2 Likes

They can do alot more then damaging only light tanks


1 Like

It’s a bug that will be fixed soon so I ignored it.

1 Like

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1 Like

АА is pretty strong on Moscow maps. As it can shoot through the wooden buildings so if you know the corners and etc where people tend to gather you can build it inside the building and get some frags easy.

Need the restriction to build only ONE AA for 1 player.

And tottaly disagree with that, i dont want to see whole map with MG nests.

1 Like

Players use AA gun because it’s a better MG.
Making MG cheaper will give a reason to use it.

A LOT cheaper and a LOT faster will spam all map with such buildings.
I can agree that MG nest can be build a litle bit faster then its right now, but not a LOT faster.

1 Like

Historically accurate, well thought, good post.
As for models, I have more:

Have fun reading.
More modeling to do:

Bipods and tripods

Stationary and portable MG42 could have a difference in look. The “light” bipod MG42 is portable, while there could be a new “heavy” tripod look to replace the ones built by engineers. (The past-tense verb ‘assembled’ should be more precise here than ‘built’.) A tripod would bring more stability to the gun, and increase its accuracy. Well, due to game balance reasons these benefits could arrive later, but please do correct the workhorse of the Wehrmacht.

Give Bren a tripod!

According to WW2 official British TOE (Table of equipment and organization), each British infantry company has 5 tripods to mount Bren LMGs. A tripod made a Bren more suitable for defense, as it increased its effective range. It could also provide fire support for friendly units in an attack, for example by suppressing the enemy, keeping their heads down and away from windows. The tripod could be reconfigured to an AA mount. A 100 round pan mag could be used for this purpose. These tripod mounted Brens should be assembled by the engineer I, replacing the M1919 Browning, (If not then by a future HMG squad, which needs one soldier to carry the tripod and one for the Bren. Gunner could not shoot on the move.), and they should have the flexibility to change configuration to attack either infantry or aircraft.

Press to look at picture: Bren with tripod in use

M1919 Browning should get a tripod.

The M1919 Browning is the standard US infantry company support MG, each company has 2 of them. They also came with tripods and their realistic shot dispersion is way lower than the current state in game. This should be the Engineer II’s MG build but I wouldn’t mind if the British (Engineer I) received them via lend lease. The big thing is the gun’s accuracy. Currently 4 out of 5 rounds it fires at 150 meters/yards/arshini range misses the target.

M1919 Browning with tripod

Add new light AA guns:

Add a single barreled Flak38 AA mount to replace the AA assembled by German Engineer I in Moscow and Berlin. This would reduce the firepower of Engineer I’s AA, but would increase the Allies’ infantry and aircraft’s much needed chances of survival when they encounter this type of weapon. This matches historical reality, as the single barrel Flak38 was what the Germans most often had. The single-barrel configuration is 34 times more common than the Flakvierling. This would encourage the player to shoot more accurately with the weapon. In the Tunisian campaign, add the Italian 20mm/L65 Breda Mod.35 instead. As a dual-purpose gun, the Italian weapon was used extensively by the Italian Army against both aircraft and infantry. It is also capable of defeating the armor of light tanks: its AP shells could penetrate 30mm of armor at 500m range. The AB41 in game already uses the same gun. The developers could replicate the historical field mount for it.

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Against ground targets the gun fired armour-piercing rounds, while aircraft targets were engaged with a high explosive projectile that incorporated a very sensitive percussion fuse to operate against light aircraft structures. The latter projectile also had a self-destruct feature if it did not hit a target. The tripod platform of the gun provided a steady base for firing and against aircraft the gun proved very successful. Against tanks it was less effective, but any weapons captured by the Allies during the North African campaigns were usually mounted on the light armoured cars to provide them with more offensive capability than a machine gun provided and Portee to provide mobile air defence for armoured columns.
Yes, the British in Tunisia used captured Breda 20mms against the Axis.

The German Engineer II in Stalingrad and Normandy should have access to 37mm Flak37. The reason for this is the Flakvierling’s lack of punch against large aircraft in these campaigns, notably Stalingrad’s bombers. This gun would give ground troops the ability to drop bombers from the sky. It has a rate of fire of 160 rounds per minute, and is commonly used against ground targets, alike the 88mm flak and Flakvierling,

Flak37



The Western Allies should use the 20mm Oerlikon Mark II autocannon. It could be fed by either a 60-round drum or a 20-round box. It should be on the field mount used by both Oerlikon and Polsten guns. Engineer I could build the single barrel mount, while Engineer II- triple barrel mount.

Oerlikon

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Effective range: 1,000 yards (914m) against aircraft with HE-I Mark 3 shell, USN Oerlikon gunners typically opened fire at 1,200-1,300 yards (1,097-1,189m) for aiming correction (absolute maximum range 4,800 yards (4,389m) elevated at 45 degrees: AA ceiling 10,000 feet (3,048m))
It took me a long time to find photos of single Oerlikons mounted on the ground, the web was filled with damn late-war Polstens or navy Oerlikons. I couldn’t find photos of multi-barrel land mounts except this one with three barrels.

In 1943 the Allies realized that 20mm mounts with multiple guns were just a waste of ammo and equipment, so they replaced the few with single barreled Bofors. The most common AA gun for the Western Allies is actually the 40mm Bofors. The US version of it is designated 40-mm Automatic Gun M1. Its effective range is about 4km, and I guess it could OSK (one shot kill) most Axis aircraft, so it better only be in Normandy with Engineer II.

Bofors



In the Red Army, there are three alternatives for light AA: 12.7mm DShK HMG, 25mm 72-K autocannon, and 37mm 61-K autocannon. The first two are a bit problematic during the Battle of Moscow and Stalingrad. The DShK lacks firepower against aircraft, even if it could obliterate light panzers using AP. Most of the them were mounted on vehicles. AA units equipped with infantry tripod mounts were busy protecting HQs and artillery, thus there weren’t much of them left to support line-infantry. The situation is similar for the 72-K: It wasn’t mass-produced until 1943. Most of the early versions were mounted on trucks or installed in fixed positions because of their original mount’s deficiencies. These issues made it a rare weapon for Moscow and Stalingrad. A heavier gun- the 37mm 61-K autocannon, was way more common. Its performance was similar to the Bofors, making it an ideal weapon to deal with bombers. I suggest they be added in Stalingrad for Engineer II to build. Because they are fighting very close to the frontline in Enlisted, they should get a gun shield. All of these AA guns are dual purpose, which means they could also be used against ground targets. Their AT capabilities are all considerable: The DShK can penetrate 15mm armor at 500m range; the 72-K could pen 40mm armor at 100m range with its AP round in theory; the AP shells of the 61-K reportedly can defeat 37mm of RHA at 60° at 500 meters range.

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37mm:

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By the way, maybe allow the famous 88mm flak to shoot planes and lower their guns to hit land targets. It has the limitations of a long load time with insufficient crew. The ammo is heavy and it should be stored in ammo crates nearby. The amount of 88flak in maps should be reduced due to the OP nature of these guns.

88mm Flak18/37