Can we have more then 2 foliage camos?

[CaptainSebekel]

Why limit to two?

[OwlWi7cher]

@ErikaKalkbrenner

can only be bought therefore considered “pay to win” ( i find this hard to believe as well, but look up the threads about the bushes in war thunder. which aren’t baseless )

Okay, this is a valid argument what I hadn’t considered.

[olek_z17]

@Knyaz_Iaroslav

Its a game?
Ah yes, no I not play in this game.

I know. We all know.
If you have played it, you would’ve known how annoying a small tank completely covered in bushes can be.

[JAREDUP]

I have seen bushes in maybe 2 tanks since the bush update, I don’t see a problem with maybe 3 bush slots.

[Vaughn_Brute]

Totally agree I want 3 or 4

[Vaughn_Brute]

@ErikaKalkbrenner

if you want your WT type of fuckery, go there

This isn’t WT, you can’t turn your tank into a bush because you’ll completely blind yourself unlike WT because WT cameras are obviously unaffected by blocking vision devices. 4 bushes should absolutely be allowed in Enlisted

[Vaughn_Brute]

@ErikaKalkbrenner

you will sure love a tiger campaign with bushes over a hill and don’t know what to do. beside cas him, but good luck finding it with all those bushes.

or… a jumbo with bushes

I also don’t really agree with this. A Tiger or Jumbo camping in the back is exactly that regardless of if they have camouflage on or not.
Once again in Enlisted bush camping is limited to how well you can see. If you stick yourself into a bush well you’ll probably struggle to see a damn thing.
I personally think restricting customization based on something which is extremely circumstantial is a very loose argument

[ErikaKalkbrenner]

@Vaughn_Brute

This isn’t WT, you can’t turn your tank into a bush because you’ll completely blind yourself unlike WT because WT cameras are obviously unaffected by blocking vision devices.

except.

you don’t need to see as long you have a binocle, and a cupola to watch outside.

@Vaughn_Brute

I also don’t really agree with this. A Tiger or Jumbo camping in the back is exactly that regardless of if they have camouflage on or not.
Once again in Enlisted bush camping is limited to how well you can see. If you stick yourself into a bush well you’ll probably struggle to see a damn thing.
I personally think restricting customization based on something which is extremely circumstantial is a very loose argument

you see, it’s not really about agreeing, rather than actually open your eyes, and see the issues that bushes would cause. ( or rather, make all the current issues more present )

having more bushes would even potentially prevent you from getting CASed as render distance is shit, and if you get in range, you probably mistake that said tank for an actual bush.

because having bushes it’s an advantage. might not grant you 90% of the chances of winning against another tank, or inf, or whatever, but having the bushes it’s still a high optic advantage. which on normandy, moscow, and the pacific loosing a few seconds or minutes to check every jungle/forest to see if it’s an actual tank or a bush serves no good to anyone.
beside those who intend to do so.

but once again, i haven’t seen many good arguments in favors of many bushes, but you don’t really need them because there aren’t any. let alone the fact that you don’t need 4 bushes no matter what.

you either place them in front with the two that you got and hide the weakspots, or put them on the roof to avoid cas.

bushes are and should be just there for cosmetics. and the good balance has been made by limiting them to only 2.

not a jack of all trades.
it’s really that simple.

[Vaughn_Brute]

@ErikaKalkbrenner

except.

you don’t need to see as long you have a binocle, and a cupola to watch outside

Taller cupolas like on vehicles like the Panther do provide a benefit of being taller so you could cover more of your turret however it’s still restrictive. If you block your gunners sight and say you lose a couple crew members then your vehicle is useless. Not to mention that if you cover your gunners sight to be solely reliant on your cupola then you also don’t get access to your pen indicator which helps some players when searching for weakpoints like say on a Jumbo then that’s the players trade off. Also binos while useful are basically asking to be dropped by snipers or just generic AI who have the ability to turn on you like gods (don’t screw with them) binos in my experience have to be used in brief periods of time to avoid getting your head taken off.

@ErikaKalkbrenner

having more bushes would even potentially prevent you from getting CASed as render distance is shit, and if you get in range, you probably mistake that said tank for an actual bush

I would contest this, even with 4 bushes you can’t conceal your tank especially the larger vehicles (Tiger, Panther, Shermans) to such an extent that it be out of the sight of planes.

@ErikaKalkbrenner

but having the bushes it’s still a high optic advantage

No denial it is an advantage but once again you over estimate what people can do to actually conceal their tank. Once again it’s not War Thunder bushes need to be placed properly and strategically to not blind yourself. If like me you don’t want to cover any of your optics then you’re very limited as to where foliage could be placed.

@ErikaKalkbrenner

but once again, i haven’t seen many good arguments in favors of many bushes

Apples and Oranges mate, I don’t really see any good arguments in favor against bushes besides loose points about ‘Balance’ which as I’ve stated is circumstantial the odds of you finding a good bush that you see out of, can’t be spotted by planes, aren’t spotted by any Infantry or other tanks, don’t lose a cap point and get to remain stationary the entire game is like nil to none

@ErikaKalkbrenner

you either place them in front with the two that you got and hide the weakspots, or put them on the roof to avoid cas

Again dependent on the vehicle in question but from where I stand the argument of using camouflage to hide from air is really unfounded. You can’t realistically cover yourself enough to remain unspotted

I mean just look at my Tiger 1 from Normandy. Yeah I could put some of the larger camouflage on top but you really ain’t covering that beast no matter what, same principle goes for a large number of the vehicles in game

@ErikaKalkbrenner

not a jack of all trades.
it’s really that simple

Never was or would be. The idea that you need to place camo properly or run blind means that in cannot be a jack of all trades unlike War Thunder where it offers no disadvantages to the user.

[ErikaKalkbrenner]

@Vaughn_Brute

Taller cupolas like on vehicles like the Panther do provide a benefit of being taller so you could cover more of your turret however it’s still restrictive. If you block your gunners sight and say you lose a couple crew members then your vehicle is useless.

gray tank campers aren’t gonna use crew. because unless you have an airplane, you can’t reach them.

how does this matter?

i’m sure giving them the ability to have bushes to cover the whole front, is gonna improve nothing. but as i said, makes all the other issues more prelevant.

meaning that they wont lose member crew. and therefore this whole point is kinda… on it’s own.

@Vaughn_Brute

Not to mention that if you cover your gunners sight to be solely reliant on your cupola then you also don’t get access to your pen indicator which helps some players when searching for weakpoints like say on a Jumbo then that’s the players trade off.

with majority of the vehicles ( mostly on the german side ) you don’t really need to aim. majority of the ally vehicles you just have to shoot for the turret ).

i know this, you know this, pretty much almost everyone else does.

@Vaughn_Brute

Also binos while useful are basically asking to be dropped by snipers or just generic AI who have the ability to turn on you like gods (don’t screw with them) binos in my experience have to be used in brief periods of time to avoid getting your head taken off.

you have to be seen first.

and i can guarantee you that you never see gray zone camp tanks. you just feel them when it’s usually late.

@Vaughn_Brute

I would contest this, even with 4 bushes you can’t conceal your tank especially the larger vehicles (Tiger, Panther, Shermans) to such an extent that it be out of the sight of planes.

A. there aren’t only those tanks. but smaller ones as well
B. you theorically don’t need to conceil the whole tank.

@Vaughn_Brute

to such an extent that it be out of the sight of planes.

this is where you are absolutely wrong.

you know what’s funny? bushes have unlimited distance range. while the other stuff can disappear if out of range:

( even though planes don’t fly this high )

so… no. you ain’t gonna see him most of the times.

( want me to play hide and seek with bushed tanks in jungles and stuff? )

which;

@Vaughn_Brute

No denial it is an advantage but once again you over estimate what people can do to actually conceal their tank. Once again it’s not War Thunder bushes need to be placed properly and strategically to not blind yourself. If like me you don’t want to cover any of your optics then you’re very limited as to where foliage could be placed.

we discussed these points before. and what kinda scares me, is that you don’t realize the negatives simply outnumber the positives aspects.

and usually, you don’t ( or shouldn’t ) make bad decisions because appeals one or two.

@Vaughn_Brute

Apples and Oranges mate, I don’t really see any good arguments in favor against bushes besides loose points about ‘Balance’ which as I’ve stated is circumstantial the odds of you finding a good bush that you see out of,

don’t really see the correlation. but.

@Vaughn_Brute

which as I’ve stated is circumstantial the odds of you finding a good bush that you see out of, can’t be spotted by planes, aren’t spotted by any Infantry or other tanks, don’t lose a cap point and get to remain stationary the entire game is like nil to none

which, that’s what camp tankers do.

remember?

we playing the same game?

doesn’t sounds like.

the only way those gets destroyed, are through suicide cas, or a tank with a bigger gun.

but until this point, how many died already because of bushes.

again, cons > beneficts.

i will take any day the restrictions rather than beneficting one or two individuals.

if you want to spend on cosmetics, you are entitled to do so. but not to a point where it gives advantages. which were the dev’s words. the same ones that made the restriction in the first place.

@Vaughn_Brute

Again dependent on the vehicle in question but from where I stand the argument of using camouflage to hide from air is really unfounded. You can’t realistically cover yourself enough to remain unspotted

you kinda answered to your self.

vehicle dependant.

@Vaughn_Brute

Never was or would be. The idea that you need to place camo properly or run blind means that in cannot be a jack of all trades unlike War Thunder where it offers no disadvantages to the user.

fairly sure that if those would get introduced, whiners will ask for bushes to not cover optics and stuff.

because what you don’t remember, wt had the same system from enlisted.

bushes DID obscured your visual:

but then, this “thing” got removed. and now you can become a bush tank without having downsides to it.

therefore, no matter how blind you want to be, it’s still, and the answer should still be a no.

[Vaughn_Brute]

@ErikaKalkbrenner

gray tank campers aren’t gonna use crew

This is getting into specifics but to humor this point they absolutely will use crew members. Using a particular example from my experience on Normandy Airfield. I was in my Tiger 1 during a match and an allied player got into a M4A1(76) we both shot at each other. I got the one shot he got unlucky hit my turret, killed 3 of my crew but didn’t blow up my vehicle, I was still ticking. Now if I had stupidly covered my gunners sight my vehicle would have been useless, firing my weapons blindly.
Furthermore sometimes Greyzone campers aren’t always insta killed by planes, sometimes Rockets don’t hit ammo and blow up the tank and just kill some crew instead at least decreasing their ability to fight for a time.

@ErikaKalkbrenner

with majority of the vehicles ( mostly on the german side ) you don’t really need to aim. majority of the ally vehicles you just have to shoot for the turret )

This is obviously very specific to Normandy. I was using that as an example but I mean it in general. For example in Berlin and Moscow similar situation. Some vehicles have specific weakpoints to aim for which experienced players can normally do from the commanders view however it is far easier from the more precise gunners sight. Ergo covering it is a trade off for that vehicle. Concealment vs Vision

@ErikaKalkbrenner

and i can guarantee you that you never see gray zone camp tanks. you just feel them when it’s usually late

This is not true, look at the old D Day hill camping locations, that was probably the pinnacle of Grey Zone tank camping. Incredibly easy to spot. Infact stuck out like a sore thumb on the hillside. Problem was not finding them but actually dealing with them especially when the heavier German tanks Tiger and Panther arrived on the battlefield.

@ErikaKalkbrenner

A. there aren’t only those tanks. but smaller ones as well

Aye yes there are smaller vehicles however the ones I used as an example are typically the vehicles in question. Majority of people won’t bother throwing camo onto the M5s and Pumas furthermore these vehicles are far less powerful and much more easily dealt with by everything on the battlefield.

@ErikaKalkbrenner

so… no. you ain’t gonna see him most of the times

Aye you are correct that bushes do not disappear however I once again reiterate my point that your vehicle needs to be well or fully concealed to be effectively hiden from air. This is not really possible as of now with 2 and maybe difficulty done with 3 or 4.
Remember I say difficulty done with 3 or 4 because as I mentioned earlier it’s that trade off. If I cover the whole roof of my vehicle I can cover my optics if not done properly. Finding that balance is not as easy as people seem to think it is.
However for theory sake lets say they up the limit to 3 or 4 and I get that perfect setup my roof is covered and I am now difficult to spot by air alone. That still leaves me completely exposed everything and everyone on the ground. This is the other point I tried getting at earlier aswell. The odds of remaining hidden from Infantry, tanks, air is so slim it’s almost not even worth considering. It’s far to circumstantial to be a argument in opposition to raising the limit.

I mean look at that photo you threw up of the bush from idk the distance. Try putting a vehicle under there right. I’d say it’s safe to assume it would be a higher level tank normally larger and therefore far more painstaking to coverup.

@ErikaKalkbrenner

we discussed these points before. and what kinda scares me, is that you don’t realize the negatives simply outnumber the positives aspects

It’s not a matter of ignorance to the effects of this sort of change. However I disagree with the arguments put forward against it. I do not believe the pros outweigh the cons. One of the key points I have been trying to get across is the circumstantial nature of the ‘positives’ in question, and I’ve tried to highlight that from a basic overlook yes the pros may seem daunting at first but are actually underlined with cons that most people don’t even seem to consider on this particular topic.

@ErikaKalkbrenner

if you want to spend on cosmetics, you are entitled to do so. but not to a point where it gives advantages. which were the dev’s words

See I agree with this statement but don’t think it can be well applied to these topics.

@ErikaKalkbrenner

you kinda answered to your self.

vehicle dependant

That is my point, the powerful vehicles in question cannot be realistically covered to validate the point you made about being concealed to air. I think it’s safe to say that nobody in these conversations is referring to a Puma or Panzer II C.

@ErikaKalkbrenner

fairly sure that if those would get introduced, whiners will ask for bushes to not cover optics and stuff

This is probably true, I can’t speak for what people will or won’t say people will unfortunately be people

@ErikaKalkbrenner

but then, this “thing” got removed. and now you can become a bush tank without having downsides to it

Aye I do remember when War Thunder was like that, always surprises me that they changed that however it still remains a topic of criticism for War Thunder. Just because WT made certain mistakes or decisions does not mean that Enlisted has to follow suit. My hope is that Enlisted would would be different.
It’s also worth noting that Enlisted is solely a FP title and usage of various optics is still more important than in WT past or present

@ErikaKalkbrenner

therefore, no matter how blind you want to be, it’s still, and the answer should still be a no

I stand by my points, I understand where you’re coming from but just don’t stand upon the same ground

[EdVanSchleck]

The only reason why bushes are limited to two is that this gives the devs the possibility to add gold order camos or squads for future updates. (With more than just two bushes).
I’d like to see that the bushes are actually adjusted to the size of the tank. I mean, they look ridiculous on some big tanks like the king tiger.

[Vaughn_Brute]

@EdVanSchleck

The only reason why bushes are limited to two is that this gives the devs the possibility to add gold order camos or squads for future updates. (With more than just two bushes)

That’s a very good point pretty sure there is a M5 with more bush camo in Normandy as a reward vehicle? If I remember correctly

[SoddenJStar]

You can’t though. You cannot properly camouflage most tanks with 2 pieces of foliage, you are just wrong.

[Knyaz_Iaroslav]

@ErikaKalkbrenner

rrrrright.

so you’re telling me that you enjoy getting sniped without even being able to thank for in enlisted?.

the majority does not share this sentiment, i’ll tell you that much.

Bushes do not grant the tank the magical ability to be invisible.

@ErikaKalkbrenner

then you have no idea of what insults are, honey…

Interesting

@ErikaKalkbrenner

can only be bought therefore considered “pay to win” ( i find this hard to believe as well, but look up the threads about the bushes in war thunder. which aren’t baseless )

p2w are okey in enlisted

@ErikaKalkbrenner

gives HUGE advanatages to many tanks for hiding weak spots and stuff. sure, you still have the colored crossairs, but good luck on a jumbo or pz IIIs.

Thats tank balance issue

@ErikaKalkbrenner

kinda unrealistic even for an arcade game

No, bushtank are normal.

@ErikaKalkbrenner

gonna get abused alot. bringing out the worst in every aspect ( anger, frustration, etc. i mean, sure. can be considered a miner point, but can be too much stacked on other types of issues ).

This game is full of other critical problems because of which the above is already fully felt. Bushes are unlikely to be something like that.

@ErikaKalkbrenner

i thought would make them a bit cooler:

It rather made him a bit older.

@ErikaKalkbrenner

after 4 straight matches, you’ll probably change your mind.

In war thunder?

@ErikaKalkbrenner

i could continue. but hopefully you get the point.

The tiger doesn’t break through anyway.
Pz3 is already easily penetrated by any tank(without t60).
Again, AT launchers and airplanes also don’t care about bushes, because they don’t give invisibility, and there is little difference where to shoot.

@ErikaKalkbrenner

highly debatable. marks don’t works half of the time, let alone finding capable teammates of pinging. and the penetration indicator most of the time is either wrong, or not accurately showing what you are aiming for.

You can always just spam with this. It’s always worked for me.
And, the indicator, you can use it after marking the tank to know where you are shooting.
The mark usually hangs on the center of the tank. I think you quite know where you need to shoot.

[Knyaz_Iaroslav]

@olek_z17

If you have played it, you would’ve known how annoying a small tank completely covered in bushes can be.

Well, there are no infantry.
And the maps are made for tank battles.
There are definitely bushes much more useful, but here they will not have such an effect.

[EdVanSchleck]

The Stuart in the Pacific campaign was a twitch drop. It has more bushes. And the premium US tank in the Pacific has more than two as well.

[olek_z17]

Maybe.
But still, look at the picture below. That’s an Strv 122 (Swedish up-armored Leopard 2A5), so a pretty big tank. Imagine what you can do with something like a T-34, Sherman or a Panzer IV.

[Knyaz_Iaroslav]

Well, to be honest, it is quite clearly visible.
And it is quite clear where to shoot.

[olek_z17]

Because it stands in an open field. Imagine it in a line of bushes at the end of the map (which is what tankers in Enlisted usually do).