Before jumping to conclusion with BRs placements, we should reconsider weapon performance in general

Since we’ve been talking alot about small arms balance recently, I would like to talk about this topic from a different perspective.

First I dare to give a bold statement - historically speaking MP40, PPS43, PPSH41, Sten, Thompsons, or basically all SMGs were rather equal in effective power.

You would use those weapons in close range, and could fight reliably up to 100 meters distance.

Ballistically speaking, they all used pistol rounds that had a rather simmilar stopping power.

  1. ACP - bigger bullet than 9mm, but travelling at a slower speed, so not that much more, or maybe even the same energy being transferred into target.

7.62 Tokarev - smaller bullet than 9mm, but travelling at a faster speed, to again less energy from mass, but more from velocity.

My point being here, that there isn’t much reason to have SMGs in all 5 BRs, when their performance shouldn’t be all that different, but I’ll explain further.

Now lets go on and look at firerate, now obviously there is a big difference in rate of fire between a PPSH and a MP40, surprisingly though it seems that most sources I can find that talk about controllability of those guns, the insane firerate of the PPSH seems not to make the gun less controllable than a MP40.

So it is safe to say that a PPSH has an overall better firepower than a MP 40.

However, still most historians will still claim that both guns were nonetheless rather equally great weapons. Why is that?

Because firepower is just one aspect of a gun.
Reliability for example is a much bigger issue when it comes to performance.

I think that all, MP40, PPS43, and PPSH41 box mag should sit at the same BR.
The Soviets actually didn’t think the PPSH drum mag was a good idea, which is why they moved to stickmags with their later production PPS43.

Drummags were impractical or still are today, for basically 3 reasons:

  1. Reliability issues
  2. Ergonomics
  3. Noise

While it is difficult to add a reliability mechanic to a shooter, the other two points can be added in the form of how much ammo one could carry, a big drum is clumsy, having more than two on your body seems very impractical.

Also if anyone of you ever played painball or airsoft withba big magazine, moving around makes alot of noise, now inagine instead of plastic balls rattling, imagine bullets rattled against the metal of your drum mags. Sprinting with such weapon could be heard 100 meters away easily.

Also reloading such mags takes time, they are heavy and often didn’t even fit all that well.

My point being, that the game balances out SMG BR placement with magazine capacity, while it could also give noticable negatives to drum mags, without putting them too high up the BR list.

In my ideal world you would have BR1 SMGs, with poor accuracy, long reload times

Br2 SMGs that are decent

And BR3 SMGs that perform better than your regular SMGs.

Historically speaking, the Suomi was exceptional because of how controllable it was, same as the Beretta, Drum Thompsons, Drum PPSH, and Kiraly could sit in BR3, but overall shouldn’t perform too much better than the other SMGs.

Higher BRs should be set for Assault rifles.

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Well yes and no, this is a videogame so problem like reliability or gun control aren’t a issue, like the avt who historically can’t be fired in full auto and in game behaves better than a stg44, imo yes those smg you listed should stop at tier 4 but never go lower or be nerfed

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Well, personally I think it is a mistake to encourage selectfire weapons to be primarily used in full auto, there is a reason why even today soldiers use mostly semi auto.

Enlisted should buff semi auto rifles significantly with no dispersion and very good accuracy - which should also apply to select fire rifles when used in semi auto

Full auto Battle rifles shouldnt make SMGs obsolete, rather they should make semi auto rifles obsolete, while Assault rifles should be basically better SMGs.

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Btw, Technically BR4 Beretta could get a buff since Italians used spiced up 9mm rounds

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  1. Weight

Drum mags make the gun significantly heavier and I think it should they should introduce stamina drain (like in pre-merge Stalingrad) for all weapons when shouldering them.
Especially the PPSh-41 was very heavy.

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in reality lots of things mattered, but in the game only things that matter are firepower and controllability.
russian smg were extremely controllable in real life, so unless you introduce much worse recoil contrary to real life to counter their firepower, they generally need to be higher BR than low ROF german SMG.

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When I was in the service in the late 80’s early 90’s we used the M16 in 3 shot bursts, however, the question should be answered as to how these men were using these weapons in WW2, not how we would use them today. Were they using them in semi or fully auto in WW2, there lies the answer. :wink: If a gun in reality came with the fully auto or semi auto option, then the game player should always have the option to set his weapon up to his liking.

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That is the thing, I think that a gun being very heavy, or being bad to shoulder, or having a weird reload mechanic could all be put into a “ergonomics” scale - which then could determine a reduced reload speed, slower run speed, or not being able to carry enough magazines. ( how does one carry more than two drums?)

already in the game. reload of ppsh41 box is 2.4 seconds and drum is 3.4 seconds. doesnt make gun less effective

already in game, you just need to hit certain weight with gun+stock ammo. e.g. pp shpitalny gets -20% sprint speed. doesnt make gun less effective.

shall i introduce you to concept of bags and backpacks :stuck_out_tongue:

Unless you give these guns 10 quintillion recoil and dispersion (in which case they would become absolutely unusable) there is no reality in which these can sit at br 3

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I don’t know, from what I’ve been reading lately. It seems to me that some players imagine that BR2 and BR3 should contain 80% of the game’s content.
And then BR5 should serve as a repository for things they themselves don’t want to play against.
So…
In that reality, then I could see those weapons being on BR3.

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7.62x25 produces quite notably more recoil than 9mm

Probably because both did the job, however in a game where no one is afraid of dying and suppression ( thank god ) aint a thing. Its quite impossible to draw lines from what they were or wasnt irl.

Quite sure the problem was mag well rather than magazine itself.
Sure reloading drum mag was more time consuming.

Mag well

Far as I know M37 aint any louder magazine than regular stick mag.

Well they dont.

I can already see the totally fair games of BR3 vs BR2.

That I do agree.
How ever BR1-2 is fine as it is, none of the automatics in said BR’s is so good that it would entirely overshadow every other option such as bolt actions.

BR 3-4 requires some tweaks here and there, ideally this is where the so called mid tier smg’s, SA’s and perhaps Mkb / avs should shine.
Even tho, Mkb / AVS shouldnt be any lower than BR4 to ensure they dont appear in BR2 games.

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So pulling down your backpack - reaching for your mag, switching your mag, putting the mag back into your backpack, since your fitting magazine has probably greater value than your PPSH or your life - putting your backpack back on.

Well PPSH having a 20 seconds reload sounds worthy of being a BR1 gun.

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Soviet Army drum magazines bag for PPSH and RPD machine guns

soviet-army-drum-magazines-bag-for-ppsh-and-rpd-machine-guns-550x550

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I’ve noticed the same thing. Everyone hates BR5 so they want everything in BR 2&3.

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