- As far as I am aware there was No “Offical” Sniper Rifle, most likely there were adaptaions of the commonly available rifles with comercially available scopes, but is really hard to find good information/sources on stuff like this. So It might be the safest rute to go with captured/supplied equipment unless someone finds information on that.
- Yeah good point i think i might have misidentified it in some photos i saw, the Dadao makes the most sense to have ingame.
Thank you for the correction I´ll edit that in my comment
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commercially-available scopes in 1930s China seems doubtful to me. I would assume they would’ve needed to import them from Germany or Italy, but who knows how well they would survive the trip.
From what I can remember, most of the Panzer Is and CV-33s China ordered arrived damaged in some way, and those are tanks
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I made a list of military forces fought during Battle of Shanghai.
Due to I can’t edit my own post strangely, I decided to post it on google documents.
Unfortunately, I don’t know well about Chinese army so list of Chinese side are from Wikipedia. But, list of Japanese side data are came from Japanese official war history (戦史叢書) so Japanese side data will be reliable.
Note, In that time Japanese Army/Navy (and probably Chinese Army) did not had any insignia like European. Currently game shows their insignia as a mark of platoons but if implement east-Asian warfare, developers will be need to modify this system.
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A little idea: We might as well remove the snipers from both armies because In case of Japan, Type 97 sniper rifle was not adopted yet, and in case of China it is uncertain that they had it.
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As you know, motorcycles are implemented in Tunisia campaign.
Japanese Shanghai SNLF also equipped motorcycles with armed sidecar. It will be very interesting addition for this campaign, too!
Japanese had two types of sidecar: Type 93 Motorcycle with Sidecar (九三式側車附自動二輪車) and Type 97 Motorcycle with Sidecar (九七式側車附自動二輪車). Strangely English Wikipedia says " A variation was also manufactured without a side car, called the Type 93", but as Japanese name shown, both motorcycle have sidecar.
These motorcycles were licensed production of Harley-Davidson’s motorcycle, but some improvements for military uses were added. Also, in case of Type 97, not only motorcycle’s wheel but also side car’s wheel was driven.
In case of Shanghai SNLF, driver and crew of this vehicle equipped submachineguns.
Also, this photo is very interesting. In this photo there are 6 types of armored fighting vehicles of the Shanghai SNLF. (note: They also operated late model of Type 89 tank mod.A)
Photos came from this book:
吉川和篤 [Yoshikawa Kazunori], 2012 “上海海軍特別陸戦隊写真集 [Photo album of the Shanghai Navy Special Land Force]”, Dai Nippon Kaiga [大日本絵画]
ISBN-13 : 978-4499231039
ttps://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/4499231035/ref=cm_sw_r_tw_dp_0S8CZZFT5ZZAS9NNQTB6
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Amazing post, please add this guy to you Dev team,
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Been waiting forever for a WWII game to acknowledge that China was even in the war. And Shanghai was the Stalingrad of the Sino-Japanese War, which was in turn the longest (in terms of distance and time) running front of the war. Would play the shit out of this.
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Additional interesting images
I find several interesting images. I think they are very interesting to know about the battlefield!
Fortress around Shanghai
Note: I don’t know Chinese name. Now, in Japan it is called Seeckt line. Name is came from German military adviser, Hans von Seeckt.
Pillbox
Photo source (blog)
Photo source (blog)
Watchtower?
Photo source (blog)
Uncompleted Pillbox
Photo source (Kyoto University Library Archive)
Shanghai SNLF Headquarter Building
Colorized photo on postcard, before the war
This building was build in 1927 for headquarter of Shanghai SNLF for the protection of settlement.
It was naval facility, so they raised Naval Ensign.
Photo source (Kyoto University Library Archive)
SNLF Artilleries on the rooftop of building, 1937
During the battle of Shanghai, SNLF’s artilleries deployed cannons on the rooftop of headquarter building.
Photo source (wikimedia)
Photo taken in 2016
In that time, it was used as a commercial building.
Photo source (blog)
Others
Ruins of Shanghai City Government Office
Photo source (Kyoto University Library Archive)
Ruins of Wusong district
Photo source (Kyoto University Library Archive)
Ruins of Wusong Battery
Photo source (Kyoto University Library Archive)
Sightseeing bus for battlefield tours
Photo source (Kyoto University Library Archive)
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I find some information about Chinese Sniper Rifles!
According to this article, Chinese imported 120x sniper rifle from Germany. It was called Mauser M24 Heavy-Barrel Shotgun (actually it was rifle, not shotgun) This sniper rifle will be “FN Model 24”, a one of the variation of Gewehr 98. Additionally, Chinese also received Remington Model 30 with sniper scope from US during the Battle of Shanghai.
“抗战时期——狙击手的作用有多大？”
While I find lots of information, I made campaign progress table of both army! I hope someone interested to this sheet.
Campaign Progress Table
| Lv | Japan | China |
|---|---|---|
| 1 | [Rifle] 30th Year Type Infantry Rifle [Rifle] Type 38 Carbine [SniperRifle] Type 38 Modified Sniper Rifle (*1) [AFV] Japanese Carden-Loyd Tankette Mk VIb [Infantry1] 3rd Division, 6th Infantry Regiment [Sniper1] 101st Division, 101st Infantry Regiment [Tanker1] Shanghai SNLF, Tank Unit |
[Rifle] Hanyang Type 88 Rifle [Rifle] First-Year Type Rifle [SniperRifle] FN Model 24 w/ Scope (*2) [AFV] Chinese Carden-Loyd Tankette Mk VI [Infantry1] Shanghai Security Corps (*3) [Sniper1] 88th Division, 524th Regiment [Tanker1] NRA Tank Battalion, 3rd Company |
| 2 | [Grenade] Molotov Cocktail [SMG] Steyr-Solothurn S1-100 (7.63 mm) [Assaulter1] Shanghai SNLF, 1st Battalion |
[Grenade] Molotov Cocktail [SMG] Erma EMP [Assaulter1] 87th Division, 259th Regiment |
| P | [Infantry1] 1st Destroyer Squadron NLF [Rifle] 35th Year Type Naval Rifle |
[Infantry 1] Independent 34th Brigade [Rifle] Mannlicher M1895 |
| 3 | [Grenade] Type 91 Grenade [Rifle] Type 44 Carbine [Engineer1] 1st Independent Engineer Regiment |
[Grenade] Chinese Stielhandgranate [Rifle] Xuantong 3rd Year Type Rifle (*4) [Engineer1] Insert any engineer unit here |
| 4 | [Handgun] Type 94 Pistol [Fighter] Type 95 Fighter Model I (Ki-10-I Perry) [FighterP1] 3rd Air Brigade, 6th Independent Flight Company |
[Handgun] Hanyang/Mauser C96 [Fighter] Curtis Hawk II [FighterP1] ROCAF 5th Battalion |
| 5 | [SMG] SIG-Bergmann M1920 (7.63 mm) | [SMG] Chinese Bergmann MP18 (7.63 mm) |
| P | [AFV] Type 92 Heavy Armored Car 15th Division, Reconnaissance Unit |
[AFV] Vickers-Carden-Loyd light amphibious tank [Tanker] NRA Tank Battalion, 2nd Company |
| 6 | [Rifle] Type 38 Infantry Rifle [Radio1] Shanghai Dispatch Signal Unit |
[Rifle] Zhongzheng Rifle [Radio1] Insert any signal unit here |
| 7 | [Grenade] Explosion pack [Handgun] 14th Year Type Pistol [Attacker] Type 94 Carrier-Based Bomber (D1A1 Susie) [AttackerP1] 1st Carrier Division, HIJMS Kaga Air Squadron |
[Grenade] Explosion pack [Handgun] Lugar P08 [Attacker] Northrop Gamma 2EC [AttackerP1] ROCAF 2nd Battalion |
| 8 | [AFV] Vickers-Crossley Armored Car | [AFV] Sd Kfz 221 |
| 9 | [LMG] 11th Year Type Light Machine Gun [Gunner1] 1st Independent Machine Gun Battalion |
[LMG] FM 24/29 [Gunner1] Insert any machine gun unit here |
| 10 | [Sidecar] Type 97 Motorcycle with Sidecar (11th Year Type LMG) [Rider] 3rd Cavalry Regiment |
[Sidecar] Zündapp K800 with Sidecar [Rider] Insert any recon unit here |
| 11 | [SMG] Bergmann MP28 (7.63 mm) | [SMG] Bergmann MP28 (7.63 mm) |
| 12 | [AFV] Type 94 Light Armored Car | [AFV] Panzer I |
| P | [Fighter] Type 95 Fighter Model 2 (Ki-10-II Perry) [FighterP] 3rd Air Brigade, 4th Independent Flight Company |
[Fighter] Fiat CR.32 [FighterP] ROCAF 3rd Battalion |
| 13 | [LMG] Type 96 Light Machine Gun | [LMG] SIG KE7 |
| 14 | [Mortar] 10th Year Type Grenade Discharger [Mortarman] 11th Division, 12th Infantry Regiment |
[Mortar] Type 27 Grenade Discharger (*5) [Mortarman] 3rd Artillery Regiment |
| 15 | [Fighter] Type 96 Mark 1 Carrier-Based Fighter (A5M1 Claude) [FighterP2] IJN 2nd Combined Air Group |
[Fighter] Curtis Hawk III [FighterP2] ROCAF 4th Battalion |
| 16 | [SniperRifle] Type 97 Sniper Rifle | [SniperRifle] Remington Model 30 w/ Scope |
| 17 | [Rifle] Type 38 R w/ Type 91 Rifle Grenade Launcher (*6) [Trooper2] 13th Division, 58th Infantry Regiment |
[Rifle] Kar98k w/ Schiessbecher grenade launcher (*7) [Trooper2] 19th Division, 113th Regiment |
| P | [Rifle] Mauser Rifle Model II (*8) [Trooper] 3rd Division, 3rd Engineer Regiment |
[Rifle] Lebel Model 1886 rifle [Trooper] Insert any engineer unit here |
| 18 | [Flamethrower] Type 93 Flamethrower [Flametrooper] 8th Independent Engineer Regiment |
[Flamethrower] Flammenwerfer 35 (*9) [Flametrooper] Insert anything here |
| 19 | [Attacker] Type 98 Light Bomber (Ki-32 Mary) | [Attacker] Vultee V-11 |
| 20 | [LMG] Lewis/Type 92 Light Machine Gun [GunnerII] HIJMS Izumo NLF |
[LMG] ZB vz. 26 [GunnerII] Insert any machine gun unit here |
| 21 | [Rifle] Type 38 Infantry Rifle, Pre-War Production [Engineer2] Independent 12th Engineer Regiment |
[Rifle] 4th Year Type Rifle [Engineer2] Insert any engineer unit here |
| 22 | [AFV] Type 89 Medium Tank Mod Ko / Early [Tanker2] 5th Tank Regiment |
[AFV] Vickers 6-ton tank Mk E Type B [Tanker2] NRA Tank Battalion 1st Company |
| 23 | [Mortar] Type 89 Grenade Discharger | [LMG] Lahti-Saloranta M/26 |
| 24 | [Attacker] Type 96 Mark 1 Ground-Based Attacker (Mitsubishi G3M1 Nell) [AttackerP2] 1st Combined Air Group |
[Attacker] Martine 139W [AttackerP2] ROCAF 8th Battalion |
| 25 | [SMG] Experimental Model 1 SMG (*10) [Assaulter 2] China Garrison 2nd Regiment (*11) |
[SMG] Chinese Thompson SMG [Assaulter 2] 88th Division, 264th Regiment |
| 26 | [Semi-Auto Rifle] Experimental Automatic Rifle Ko (*12) [Radio2] 6th Division, Signal Unit |
[Semi-Auto Rifle] ZH-29 [Radio2] Insert any signal unit here |
| 27 | [AFV] Type 89 Medium Tank Ko / Late | Vickers 6-ton tank Mk E Type B w/Radio |
Notes
notes
NRA: National Revolutionary Army
IJN: Imperial Japanese Navy
IJA: Imperial Japanese Army
SNLF: Special Naval Landing Force
NLF: Naval Landing Force
HIJMS: His Imperial Japanese Majesty’s Ship
XX式: Type XX
XX年式: XX Year Type
XX号: Mark XX
XX型: Model XX
*1: In that time, this weapon was not adopted yet.
*2: Chinese imported 120x Mauser M24 and its sniper scope in 1935. Reference
*3: 上海市保安總團. Chinese security forces set up in accordance with the armistice agreement of January 28 incident.
*4: 宣統三年式步槍. Xuantong 3 is western era 1911.
*5: Copy of Japanese 10th Year Type Grenade Discharger. Production started since 1938.
*6: Probably rifle grenade launcher for Type 38 Infantry Rifle. Reference
*7: Placeholder.
*8: Japanese name of Mauser Kar98k. Importer 1938.
*9: Placeholder.
*10: 試製一型機関短銃 / Experimental Model 1 Machine-Carbine
*11: 支那駐屯歩兵第二連隊. They were garrison at Tianjin (Northern China) and they tested this SMG at battlefield. They did not participated Battle of Shanghai.
*12: Only few prototype was built and project was cancelled.
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^^^ Guys make this happen!
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I have to correct this section on the top of post.
Apparently, Japanese navy’s “MP28” mentioned in several websites is a MP18, not MP28. More accuracy it was SIG-Bergmann M1920 (aka MP18/20).
Therefore, Japanese naval SMGs available in 1930s is below:
- SIG-Bergmann M1920 (Type Be Automatic Pistol/ベ式自動拳銃)
- Steyr-Solothurn S1-100 (Type Su Automatic Pistol/ス式自動拳銃)
In addition, specification is incorrect. Japanese SIG M1920 and S1-100 were use 7.63x25mm, not 7.65x21mm. Also, magazine capacity of Japanese S1-100 was 30 ammo.
Only two SMGs are available is not enough for the game. However, if you accept to include units/weapons from North China front, we can implement Experimental Model 1 Machine Pistol (SMG) [試製一型機関短銃]. It was used by Japanese Army China Garrison 2nd Regiment [支那駐屯歩兵第二連隊] to test performance on the actual battle since September 1938.
Experimental Model 1 SMG
Text on the stock is “試一型”, shorten of “試製一型/Experimental Model 1”. It have long 50 ammo magazine and ammunition would be 6.5x30mm Type 95 or 8x22mm Nambu. (I’m not sure which it is)
This gun was improved and eventually evolved into the Type 100 SMG.
Photo source
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you did kinda left out the type 99 arisaka rifle, and the 7.7x58 arisaka cartridge and how it was used in japanese army. i think this weapon/cartridge could be a bit rarer than 6.5mmSR and possibly perform like the german VZ 24
Me too!
That is a dream come true, also… Enlisted would make gaming history with this immediately.
- This game would receive so much visibility and especially in Asian markets.
Japanese and Chinese people still hate one another, therefore making a game like this would basically give them a somewhat REAL battlefield experience.
In this battle, the fight was on narrow pathways in a centuries old beautiful village. Swords, pistols etc. On both sides and insane amount of hand to hand fighting.
The village is now protected historical site in China.
Battle of Taierzhuang - Wikipedia
BOTH SIDES USED SWORDS TOO:
Chinese side:
And the japanese side of course:
It because Type 99 short rifle was adopted in 1939.
Battle of Shanghai is ended in 1937 so it was not existent.
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Very impressive post
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Nice job gathering all this! I think a lot of people wants to see china and japan in action including me. A lot of stuff already made it into the game (early german-czechslovak weapons, arisaka, some asian models) wich would help out enlisted team to make this campaign.
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Thank you!
When I made this topic I misunderstand several things.
MP18, MP28 etc were not used by Japanese (actually it was SIG-Bergmann M1920). Also, S1-100 (MP34o) have different design (magazine, bayonet, caliber etc) so it is difficult to divert in-game assets for them… Probably available assets are only Type 38 Carbine, ZB-26, ZH-29 and Vz.24.
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Nope, we don’t need more Japanese and Americans in the Pacific
Yo since this post was made, Japanese have already been added to the game. There’s even SNLF and Kwantung troops in premium. All they gotta do is add the NRA faction (and some communist squads for good measure). Practically all the weapons are already in the game.
Where are we with this?? Who’s making it happen?
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