Are there any sources whatsoever that state the fire rate of the Tokyo Arsenal SMG? I’ve checked the English Wikipedia article, but there are no sources on it. I also checked the Russian one out of curiosity and besides being much bigger and better sourced (as in, it actually cites something), it claims that this gun’s fire rate is around 1200 rpm. Unfortunately, I can read Cyrillic but I don’t know Russian.
I’d be glad if anyone knows any sources, but in particular I’m asking Russians to help with the sources cited here: Пистолет-пулемёт Токийского арсенала образца 1927 года — Википедия as well as Japanese (or anyone who knows Japanese), for obvious reasons.
1 Like
The gun had a firing rate of 1200 rounds/minute in the prototype stage, but this was due to a defective air buffer and was later corrected to 300~600 rounds/minute.
In other words, the 1200-round velocity was the actual performance recorded in testing, but it was not the velocity intended by the designer.
In 1920, the Japanese military realized the usefulness of submachine guns based on the lessons learned in World War I. The first prototype of this gun was apparently produced. The first prototype produced was the Shisei-Jidou-Tanju A.K.A Tokyo Arsenal Model 1927.
This gun was completed in 1927 and had a rate of fire of 1200 rounds and a capacity of 50 rounds. It had a drum-shaped “housing” into which bullets were inserted.
The gun was tested, but the test results were not favorable, with malfunctions occurring during testing.
In 1928, an improved version was tested again, this time with a reduced firing rate of 600 rounds and a reduced load of 18 rounds instead of 50.
However, the gun was not adopted in the end, and the military seems to have adopted the MP18 as the “Be-type submachine gun”.
Later, in 1935, Japan began another study of the submachine gun.
My source is Jiro Sayama, "Introduction to Rifles, Pistols, and Machine Guns: A Thorough Study of Japanese Small Arms.
The firing rate and the history of the test depend on the contents of this book.
That book is difficult to read and my interpretation may be wrong, or Jiro Sasayama is a Japanese firearms researcher, but he is not an academic but an ordinary person doing his own research, and I do not know what kind of sources he bases his research results on.
I searched the Japanese Archives Net Archive for documents related to this examination and was able to find a schedule of the examination, but it did not include the results of the examination.
In conclusion, I am not sure about this gun.
We have very little documentation.
Well, it was a very early gun when Japan started researching submachine guns, and it was probably never fielded or produced on a large scale. That gun that exists in the game can be considered almost a fantasy.
10 Likes
So it should be 300-600?
1 Like
If it was only from the 1928 model that it began to operate properly at 600RPM, then perhaps the appearance needs to be changed as well. we don’t know what shape this gun had when it was modified in 1928, but if the number of rounds loaded changed, then the housing may have changed as well.
Anyway I don’t have any documentation so I don’t know any more than this.
But since the gun in the game apparently implements a drum magazine and I don’t believe that the Japanese took this gun out to the Pacific, it is best to assume that it is something fictitious.
1 Like
A gold order was just too much for Darkflow…
2 Likes
This right here homie. If it had to be lowered to 600 to even operate properly, it should be 600. As far as I’m concerned, the 1928 model is just the M1927A1…
Much appreciated for the study done, well done.
1 Like
this its the reason the MG42 does not use 1200 RoF
1 Like
Second time I see another english speaking person reference Sayama here, very nice.
But yes this is pretty much correct.
The Army never officially adopted it as far as I know, the Navy bought Sig M1920 guns which were later modified to be able to take a standard Type 30 bayonet and that was called Type BE.
Sayama is a long time researcher, he’s someone who has access to a bunch of the army documents of the time, published ~15 books on various Japanese weaponry which are highly regarded and often sourced in Japanese research.
They only build 2, Sayamas other book mentions it (“Masterpiece Weapons of the Japanese Army - The Ultimate Weaponry Thorough Study” 日本陸軍の傑作兵器駄作兵器―究極の武器徹底研究)
Quick note on the 1928 gun, it looked very different from the one (confirmed) image we have
A friend of mine has a theory on another image
You can read that theory here: Tokyo Arsenal experimental SMGs
2 Likes
I’ll just link my reply from the main post here 
I originally wanted to write a bigger post detailing all the info about the gun from the book, but sadly didn’t have the time for it yet.
2 Likes
So why is the 1927 model using it when it can’t even shoot with it? It can actively shoot consistently at 600, so why is it at 1200 when it can’t even function at that rpm?
type 2 and sig 1920 have 50 magazine and 600 RoF
another 50/600 weapon can be repetitive in my opinion
1 Like
Then why not stop worrying about guns when you can easily focus on map making, assuring the map favors the Japanese like in real life?
Japs also had a knack for stuffing their nades in the ground, using them as toe poppers because of how you prime the nade. Add in a unique ability where they can not just use regular mines but also be able to stuff normal grenades in the ground. The only downside is that they can only do this in the ground, not inside a building with no dirt floors.
Japs had a bunch of other strategies, and other weapons besides small arms. Darkflow is not looking hard enough.
Warfare was not symmetrical in the island-hopping campaigns; I am still wondering why it is being treated like it was.
1 Like